[CR]Re: Classicrendezvous Digest, Vol 32, Issue 18

(Example: Component Manufacturers:Chater-Lea)

Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 15:11:11 -0700
From: "John Jorgensen" <designzero@earthlink.net>
To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
References: <MONKEYFOODAO2Rpy9tM000003f3@monkeyfood.nt.phred.org>
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Subject: [CR]Re: Classicrendezvous Digest, Vol 32, Issue 18

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> CR
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Continental Oval vs. Imperial Oval (Fred Rafael Rednor)
> 2. Re: Italian use of Reynolds tubes Was: Gitane vs Peugeot
> (Jerome & Elizabeth Moos)
> 3. Re: Italian use of Reynolds tubes Was: Gitane vs Peugeot (ternst)
> 4. Re: Brake levers
> 5. Re: Italian use of Reynolds tubes Was: Gitane vs Peugeot
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 11:21:26 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Fred Rafael Rednor <fred_rednor@yahoo.com>
> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> Subject: Re: [CR] Continental Oval vs. Imperial Oval
> Message-ID: <20050803182126.19026.qmail@web30615.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
> In-Reply-To: <20050803040123.6768.qmail@web34501.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> MIME-Version: 1.0
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> Message: 1
>
> > When did Reynolds introduce the 29 x 16 fork blade?
> >
> > If this was originally described as 'Continental
> > Oval', surely it is to differentiate from the round
> > or D-shaped blades which were common in Britain.
> >
> David,
> To be honest, by the time I started seriously looking at
> this stuff, all I recall are the 29 x 16mm blades (which I
> think are really elliptical.) Actually, that's not quite true.
> There were the round blades but I remember seeing those on
> bikes at the Kissena Park Velodrome in New York.
> Then again, it was so long ago and I was too young to really
> appreciate what I was seeing, much less commit it to memory...
> Cheers,
> Fred Rednor - Arlington, Virginia (USA)
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
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> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 11:25:52 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Jerome & Elizabeth Moos <jerrymoos@sbcglobal.net>
> To: ternst <ternst1@cox.net>, Ken Wehrenberg <wnwires@htc.net>,
> classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> Subject: Re: [CR]Italian use of Reynolds tubes Was: Gitane vs Peugeot
> Message-ID: <20050803182552.71589.qmail@web81008.mail.yahoo.com>
> In-Reply-To: <00c301c59854$d46e2430$0200a8c0@D8XCLL51>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> MIME-Version: 1.0
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> Precedence: list
> Message: 2
>
> I only took undergraduate materials science courses, but I too believe that the idea that a steel frame "goes soft" with age contradicts all the applicable science. One explanation I have heard that makes more sense is that what actually happens is that frames goes out of alignment over a few years.
>
> Frankly, I don't quite understand that either, as to deform a steel tube you should have stress it beyond its elastic limit, which should be far beyond any force applied to a bicycle frame, except in a crash. Maybe the loss of alignment actually occurs at the lugs by deforming the softer brass or silver brazing material. Or perhaps I underestimate the stress that can be applied to small tube cross-sections like at the ends of the forks and stays just above the DOs. In any case, I can much more readily believe a frams feels dead due to misalignment than because the steel tubes themselves "went soft".
>
> I've heard it reported that "dead" steel frames were restored to "lively" feel by a proper, thorough, realignmant. The problem with proving this is that both "dead" and "lively" are subjective. But at least this version of events doesn't seem to directly contradict scientific principles.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jerry Moos
> Houston, TX
>
>
> ternst <ternst1@cox.net> wrote:
> That is correct. I realize and understand the contradiction.
> I also suspect the difference in the "season" of wear is not a big amount,
> cause it would be difficult to quantify, but the feel is there and it's not
> imagination, this isn't Salem hysteria. These are serious people and that
> small feel is all that is needed to give pause because of the level of
> performance.
> Whether one speeds down the
> Alps, Rockies, or Sierras at 60mph the riders know.
> Obviously, regular riding at 15 - 25 mph, and folks who tell me they apply
> brakes and don't go over 30mph downhill probably are not going to have this
> experience.
> But it's the hard riders, as in car racing the competition drivers, who
> determine the limits for the improvement of product to the general sport and
> touring public.
> Testing goes so far, but NASA needs a little help out there, too.
> All this absolutely good discussion on blades, shape, profile, tube mix,
> etc., is outstanding to read and mull over, but until it's brazed up and
> ridden under various loads, speeds, and conditions, we don't really know.
> We're way ahead of the old timers in that we think it should be such or such
> but it still has to be ridden.
> That's why two bikes, put together in sequence by the same builder WILL FEEL
> AND RIDE ever so differently, and the owner of the matched pair with
> identical equipment will always have a favorite of the pair.
> The old track riders 80 years ago said it, and it hasn't changed today.
> Ted Ernst
> Palos Verdes Estates, CA
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ken Wehrenberg"
> To:
> Cc:
> Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 10:20 AM
> Subject: Re: [CR]Italian use of Reynolds tubes Was: Gitane vs Peugeot
>
> > Ted and list:
> >
> > I know that in the CO mountains, we had racers, esp some who had been in
> > Europe, "test" their frames after a season or so by applying foot pressure
> > to the top of six-o'clock-positioned left crank while holding bike firmly
> > at handlebars and saddle. They claimed that usage could/would cause the
> > frame to go "dead" and thus necessitate its replacement, sometimes with
> > the same maker's geometry and frame material.
> >
> > Flies totally in the face of what I learned in graduate level materials
> > science courses, though....
> >
> > Ken Wehrenberg, Hermann, MO
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 11:33:34 -0700
> From: "ternst" <ternst1@cox.net>
> To: "Jerome & Elizabeth Moos" <jerrymoos@sbcglobal.net>,
> "Ken Wehrenberg" <wnwires@htc.net>, <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> Subject: Re: [CR]Italian use of Reynolds tubes Was: Gitane vs Peugeot
> Message-ID: <00fc01c59859$dce0abb0$0200a8c0@D8XCLL51>
> References: <20050803182552.71589.qmail@web81008.mail.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1"
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Precedence: list
> Message: 3
>
> Maybe it's a subtle difference in heat and brazing between all the
> various joints from human frailty and inaccuracy, albeit ever so slight,
> but giving a little with every ride?
> But I haven't heard of the straightening theory, maybe you're on to
> something.
> Ted Ernst
> Palos Verdes Estates, CA
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jerome & Elizabeth Moos
> To: ternst ; Ken Wehrenberg ; classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 11:25 AM
> Subject: Re: [CR]Italian use of Reynolds tubes Was: Gitane vs Peugeot
>
> I only took undergraduate materials science courses, but I too believe
> that the idea that a steel frame "goes soft" with age contradicts all
> the applicable science. One explanation I have heard that makes more
> sense is that what actually happens is that frames goes out of alignment
> over a few years.
>
> Frankly, I don't quite understand that either, as to deform a steel
> tube you should have stress it beyond its elastic limit, which should be
> far beyond any force applied to a bicycle frame, except in a crash.
> Maybe the loss of alignment actually occurs at the lugs by deforming the
> softer brass or silver brazing material. Or perhaps I underestimate the
> stress that can be applied to small tube cross-sections like at the ends
> of the forks and stays just above the DOs. In any case, I can much more
> readily believe a frams feels dead due to misalignment than because the
> steel tubes themselves "went soft".
>
> I've heard it reported that "dead" steel frames were restored to
> "lively" feel by a proper, thorough, realignmant. The problem with
> proving this is that both "dead" and "lively" are subjective. But at
> least this version of events doesn't seem to directly contradict
> scientific principles.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jerry Moos
> Houston, TX
>
> ternst <ternst1@cox.net> wrote:
> That is correct. I realize and understand the contradiction.
> I also suspect the difference in the "season" of wear is not a big
> amount,
> cause it would be difficult to quantify, but the feel is there and
> it's not
> imagination, this isn't Salem hysteria. These are serious people and
> that
> small feel is all that is needed to give pause because of the level
> of
> performance.
> Whether one speeds down the
> Alps, Rockies, or Sierras at 60mph the riders know.
> Obviously, regular riding at 15 - 25 mph, and folks who tell me they
> apply
> brakes and don't go over 30mph downhill probably are not going to
> have this
> experience.
> But it's the hard riders, as in car racing the competition drivers,
> who
> determine the limits for the improvement of product to the general
> sport and
> touring public.
> Testing goes so far, but NASA needs a little help out there, too.
> All this absolutely good discussion on blades, shape, profile, tube
> mix,
> etc., is outstanding to read and mull over, but until it's brazed up
> and
> ridden under various loads, speeds, and conditions, we don't really
> know.
> We're way ahead of the old timers in that we think it should be such
> or such
> but it still has to be ridden.
> That's why two bikes, put together in sequence by the same builder
> WILL FEEL
> AND RIDE ever so differently, and the owner of the matched pair with
>
> identical equipment will always have a favorite of the pair.
> The old track riders 80 years ago said it, and it hasn't changed
> today.
> Ted Ernst
> Palos Verdes Estates, CA
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ken Wehrenberg"
> To:
> Cc:
> Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 10:20 AM
> Subject: Re: [CR]Italian use of Reynolds tubes Was: Gitane vs
> Peugeot
>
> > Ted and list:
> >
> > I know that in the CO mountains, we had racers, esp some who had
> been in
> > Europe, "test" their frames after a season or so by applying foot
> pressure
> > to the top of six-o'clock-positioned left crank while holding bike
> firmly
> > at handlebars and saddle. They claimed that usage could/would
> cause the
> > frame to go "dead" and thus necessitate its replacement, sometimes
> with
> > the same maker's geometry and frame material.
> >
> > Flies totally in the face of what I learned in graduate level
> materials
> > science courses, though....
> >
> > Ken Wehrenberg, Hermann, MO
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Classicrendezvous mailing list
> Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> http://www.bikelist.org/mailman/listinfo/classicrendezvous
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 14:48:08 -0400
> From: mmeison@aol.com
> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> Subject: [CR]Re: Brake levers
> Message-ID: <8C7667306B75D88-151C-22529@MBLK-M34.sysops.aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Precedence: list
> Message: 4
>
> Thanks to all for the response concerning the aero
> levers. I've found a pair in an offer I can't refuse .
>
> Marty Eison
> Dallas, Sweltering Texas
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 18:53:49 +0000
> From: gpvb1@comcast.net
> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> Subject: Re: [CR] Italian use of Reynolds tubes Was: Gitane vs Peugeot
> Message-ID: <080320051853.23954.42F112BD000CCB7000005D922207003201CE0D909F09@comcast.net>
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> _______________________________________________
>
> End of Classicrendezvous Digest, Vol 32, Issue 18
> *************************************************