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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Classicrendezvous digest..." CR Today's Topics:
1. Help dating Raleigh Record Ace Moderne? (Mark Stonich) 2. anyone heard of Roth bikes? (e a) 3. Re: Help dating Raleigh Record Ace Moderne? (Michael Butler) 4. Roth bikes/cable guide (Jay Sexton) 5. Re: Help dating Raleigh Record Ace Moderne? (P.C. Kohler) 6. Help dating RRA Moderne?/Clarification (Mark Stonich) 7. For Sale: Suntour Parts 8. Re: FS: 1966 Chrome Paramount f&f, 23 inch (Thomas Adams) 9. WTB 27" wheelset (Jay Sexton) 10. Re: FS: 1966 Chrome Paramount f&f, 23 inch (Chuck Schmidt) 11. Re: Help dating Raleigh Record Ace Moderne? (Don Wilson) 12. RE: FS: 1966 Chrome Paramount f&f, 23 inch (Mark Bulgier) 13. Re: Help dating Raleigh Record Ace Moderne? 14. TA ring WTB - two things I forgot to mention...(Duncan Granger) 15. selling three old friends a raleigh, colnago & tesch 16. Re: selling three old friends a raleigh, colnago & tesch (Ken Sanford) 17. Roth bikes/cable guide (Doug Fattic) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 14:17:23 -0500 From: Mark Stonich <mark@bikesmithdesign.com> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: [CR]Help dating Raleigh Record Ace Moderne?
A friend has asked me to try to sell an old Raleigh Record Ace. But before I start, I should at least figure out how old it is.
The serial number, RA7062, doesn't fit into the on-line serial # lists I've found. 531 stays and butted main tubes. Oil ports on HT & BB. Single Simplex or Huret shifter braze on. Chrome stay and fork tips. Black with cream (or maybe originally white) HT Airlite front hub (No rear wheel or derailleur) Braze on for Sturmey pulley on seat lug. Has a 1961 Santa Monica CA licence sticker.
http://bikesmithdesign.com/
Does anyone recognize these lugs?
http://bikesmithdesign.com/
Too bad it's a 23". If an inch or 2 smaller, it would be the perfect bike for my NOS Cyclo-Benelux SA conversion and alloy shelled FW.
Mark Stonich; Minneapolis Minnesota http://mnhpva.org http://bikesmithdesign.com
Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 12:40:20 -0700 From: "e a" <moschika@hotmail.com> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: [CR] anyone heard of Roth bikes?
Thanks for some of the info, or at least validation that this was a pretty good find. i wouldn't be surprised if this was from a very small production. unfortunately for me this frame is too big. but i couldn't pass it up, considering the price. i have a cousin, who's a bit taller, that wants to get into road riding, so if it fits him... if not, then i'll probably e-bay it.
and yes, Greg, i did find this at the dump. well, actually at a recycling center at the dump. i've had i guess pretty good success there, though most is what you'ld expect. in my photo album, i also found the motobecane and the ruegger at the same place.
as for the DA crank, it's a circle with a 6 or 9. which would mean 86 or 89. i didn't think they were still making those that late but that is what's on each crank arm.
Eric Acuna Santa Rosa, CA
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Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 20:43:17 +0100 (BST) From: Michael Butler <pariscycles@yahoo.co.uk> To: Mark Stonich <mark@bikesmithdesign.com> CC: CR Rendezvous <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> Subject: Re: [CR]Help dating Raleigh Record Ace Moderne?
Mark,
I think that model dates from 1957.
Best wishes Mick B Huntingdon UK.
> A friend has asked me to try to sell an old Raleigh
> Record Ace. But
> before I start, I should at least figure out how old
> it is.
>
> The serial number, RA7062, doesn't fit into the
> on-line serial #
> lists I've found.
> 531 stays and butted main tubes.
> Oil ports on HT & BB.
> Single Simplex or Huret shifter braze on.
> Chrome stay and fork tips.
> Black with cream (or maybe originally white) HT
> Airlite front hub (No rear wheel or derailleur)
> Braze on for Sturmey pulley on seat lug.
> Has a 1961 Santa Monica CA licence sticker.
>
> http://bikesmithdesign.com/
>
> Does anyone recognize these lugs?
> http://bikesmithdesign.com/
>
> Too bad it's a 23". If an inch or 2 smaller, it
> would be the perfect
> bike for my NOS Cyclo-Benelux SA conversion and
> alloy shelled FW.
>
> Mark Stonich;
> Minneapolis Minnesota
> http://mnhpva.org
> http://bikesmithdesign.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Classicrendezvous mailing list
> Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
>
http://www.bikelist.org/
>
Thats all for now. Keep those wheels spinning, in your memories if not still on the road. Be lucky Mick Butler Huntingdon UK.
Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 12:44:28 -0700 From: Jay Sexton <jvs@sonic.net> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: [CR]Roth bikes/cable guide
snipped from Doug Fattic's post:
"their are a number of amateur builders who have made a frame for themselves and a few for their buddies. This framelooks like a candidate for that class of builder. There are a couple of clues for this. First, he didn't bend the back of the front derailleur cable guide on the top of the bottom bracket shell to match the angle the cable runs. A pro builder wouldn't make that mistake. "
Doug, this may be more of a topic for framebuilders forum, but your comment prompted me to take a peek at my bikes with that b.b. cable guide. My Italian bikes, the Olmo and Medici (well, sorta Italian) have this same cable guide, and they have the same angle as the Roth frame cable guide. Or lack of, as you say. My Japanese bikes, specifically my two Centurion Pro Tours, have a very nice upward curved radius at the rear of the guide, sending the front der. cable on it's way.
Thanks for pointing out this subtle difference! This knowledge will come in handy in the future.
Jay Sexton Sebastopol, CA Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 16:00:46 -0400 From: "P.C. Kohler" <kohl57@starpower.net> To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>, "Mark Stonich" <mark@bikesmithdesign.com> Subject: Re: [CR]Help dating Raleigh Record Ace Moderne?
Mark, this is a RRA Moderne dating from 1957-59. This was the last of the classic RRAs and introduced about four years after the famous 1948 variant went out of production.
The shifter boss should be a Cyclo-Benelux one. This could be had either with SA hub gears or Cyclo derailleur.
Peter Kohler Washington DC USA Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 15:18:03 -0500 From: Mark Stonich <mark@bikesmithdesign.com> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: [CR]Help dating RRA Moderne?/Clarification
I'm not trying to sell the RRA on the list.
A. I've no intention of shipping it.
B. I'll be selling it at the http://www.abcetour.com/
In retrospect, I realize it was not necessary to mention that it's for sale.
Mark Stonich; Minneapolis Minnesota http://mnhpva.org http://bikesmithdesign.com
Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 16:44:20 EDT From: LouDeeter@aol.com To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: [CR]For Sale: Suntour Parts
This is a package deal. I'm cleaning out the parts bins. All of these parts for $35 total, shipped. The blue line parts are in excellent condition, others are average used. All parts are Suntour.
Blue line shifters, clamp front der and rear derailleur. Shifters are cutout. Cyclone clamp front derailleur and cyclone rear derailleur XC Sport Long cage clamp front derailleur and XC sport Long cage rear derailleur Bar end shifters, ratcheting kind, with clamps for the bar ends.
Lou Deeter, Orlando FL
Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 13:55:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Thomas Adams <thomasthomasa@yahoo.com> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: Re: [CR]FS: 1966 Chrome Paramount f&f, 23 inch
An italian BB on a Paramount? Very strange indeed. I'd suspect a replaced BB, but that would be hard to do on a chrome bike without showing marks. Or, perhaps the threads were severly damaged, and someone ground out the damaged threads and then retapped to Italian. I've vaugely heard of this being possible for a reapair, but never have seen it done.
Or, third option, an Italian frame relabled as a Paramount. But probably not as the serial # is consistent with a Schwinn machine. But then Shwinn had only a lmited period for using the Nervex BB's, and I thought they were using the Prugnat in '66. Anyone know for sure?
The game is afoot, Watson.
Tom Adams, Shrewsbury NJ
Tom Hayes wrote: If anyone on the list is interested, I have 23 inch center to top, 22.5 center to center on the toptube, 1966 (serial number on drop-out and fork are F641) chrome Schwinn Paramount. The only braze-ons are the to-the-side toptube rear brake housing guides and a rear derailleur cable housing stop. The chrome overall is in very good condition, except for six inches on the both sides of the front fork (at least it matches.) It appears as if someone had something on the front fork and when taken off, the chrome came with it, or, I suppose, another possibility is that someone had the bike rechromed, and it had protective tape on it, or something to that effect. This is the model with the eyelets on the fork ends. It comes with a Campagnolo headset also. It requires an Italian bottom bracket (I thought all Paramounts were English threaded.) This particular frame has Nervex bottom bracket in addition to the other lugs being Nervex. No decals, but it has the headbadge.
$475.00 plus shipping, approximately $15-40 via Fed-Ex Ground depending upon how far you are away from 44023.
I have jpegs if you want them.
Thank you.
Cheers.
Tom Hayes Chagrin Falls, Ohio
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Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 14:00:03 -0700 From: Jay Sexton <jvs@sonic.net> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: [CR]WTB 27" wheelset
Well, I've about had it with e-bay. I don't have bottomless pockets, and I don't use sniping software, so my efforts to buy a set of 27" wheels has once again fizzled.
Does anyone have a set of 27" wheels they can part with? I would prefer very good to excellent condition, complete decals, either Wolber Super Champion Gentleman (blue label) or Mavic Ma2 rims. Hubs can be Suntour cyclone; early Dura Ace; or Campangolo. 36 hole. Stainless spokes, either straight gauge or double butted. With or without rim strips.
I would also be interested in rims only, if available. I need these for my Centurion Pro Tour project. Tried 700c wheels, just to maintain comformity among my wheelsets, but the brakes don't have enough adjustment for 700c wheels
Thanks!
Jay (dejected, but still hopeful) Sexton Sebastopol, CA Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 14:10:13 -0800 From: Chuck Schmidt <chuckschmidt@earthlink.net> To: Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: Re: [CR]FS: 1966 Chrome Paramount f&f, 23 inch
Thomas Adams wrote:
>
> An italian BB on a Paramount? Very strange indeed. I'd suspect a replaced BB, but that would be hard to do on a chrome bike without showing marks. Or, perhaps the threads were severly damaged, and someone ground out the damaged threads and then retapped to Italian. I've vaugely heard of this being possible for a reapair, but never have seen it done.
>
I've got a 40+ year old high end French bike that had its French BB shell retapped out to Italian at some point in its long and varied life before I became the caretaker... (the stories these bikes could tell)!
Chuck "I could tell you stories that would make your hair stand on end" Schmidt South Pasadena, Southern California
. Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 14:20:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Wilson <dcwilson3@yahoo.com> To: Classic Rendezvous <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> Subject: Re: [CR]Help dating Raleigh Record Ace Moderne?
Mark, It is a 1957-58 model. I have one. They stopped making the Record Ace in 55-56, then brought it back for two years as the Record Ace Modern--probably to get rid of some old stock. It is an absolutely civilized bicycle. A super combination of sensible geometry, good tubes a proper riding position. Understated in the best way. This was what convinced me that English bikes were my favorites, when you find the right fit. Mine has a Sturmey 4 speed hub gear (FX or something) and a Sturmey hub generator. Hiduminium brakes that aren't much to brag about. Mine is gold and black with quite a bit of "patina." :-)
Some English fellow had a web page about the Record Ace and at the end of the history of the model it mentioned the Moderne. Alas, I just googled it, which was the way I found it some years back, and I can't find it now.
Hope this helps.
Don Wilson
Los Olivos, CA
> A friend has asked me to try to sell an old Raleigh
> Record Ace. But
> before I start, I should at least figure out how old
> it is.
>
> The serial number, RA7062, doesn't fit into the
> on-line serial #
> lists I've found.
> 531 stays and butted main tubes.
> Oil ports on HT & BB.
> Single Simplex or Huret shifter braze on.
> Chrome stay and fork tips.
> Black with cream (or maybe originally white) HT
> Airlite front hub (No rear wheel or derailleur)
> Braze on for Sturmey pulley on seat lug.
> Has a 1961 Santa Monica CA licence sticker.
>
> http://bikesmithdesign.com/
>
> Does anyone recognize these lugs?
> http://bikesmithdesign.com/
>
> Too bad it's a 23". If an inch or 2 smaller, it
> would be the perfect
> bike for my NOS Cyclo-Benelux SA conversion and
> alloy shelled FW.
>
> Mark Stonich;
> Minneapolis Minnesota
> http://mnhpva.org
> http://bikesmithdesign.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Classicrendezvous mailing list
> Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
>
http://www.bikelist.org/
>
D.C. Wilson 805.688.8696 dcwilson3@yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------- Note: This message may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not the addressee or authorized to receive this for the addressee, you must not use, copy, disclose or take any action based on this message or any information herein. If you have received this message in error, please advise the sender immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message. Thank you for your cooperation. -------------------------------------------------------------
__________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 14:31:55 -0700 From: "Mark Bulgier" <Mark@bulgier.net> To: <Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> Subject: RE: [CR]FS: 1966 Chrome Paramount f&f, 23 inch
English or French BBs tapped to Italian will still be 68mm wide though, where one that was Ital from day1 will normally be 70. What's the frequency, Kenneth? Er I mean what's the Paramount BB width, Tom? (asking Tom Hayes, the seller)
Mark Bulgier Seattle WA USA
Thomas Adams wrote:
> An italian BB on a Paramount? Very strange indeed. I'd
> suspect a replaced BB, but that would be hard to do on a
> chrome bike without showing marks. Or, perhaps the threads
> were severly damaged, and someone ground out the damaged
> threads and then retapped to Italian. I've vaugely heard of
> this being possible for a reapair, but never have seen it done.
And Chuck Schmidt added:
> I've got a 40+ year old high end French bike that had its
> French BB shell retapped out to Italian at some point [...]
Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 17:38:17 EDT
From: Hughethornton@aol.com
To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
Subject: Re: [CR]Help dating Raleigh Record Ace Moderne?
I have a 1958 Raleigh brochure which shows the RRA Moderne with 531 butted tubing and a choice of 2 fixed sprockets at £37.0.9d or SA 4-spd medium ra tio at £39.19.6d or Cyclo Benelux 5-spd at £40.6.11d. The braze-on lever b oss, if original, would be for a Cyclo shifter. In the picture, the front hub looks like an Airlite, but it doesn't say. The fork and stay ends are chro med.
My similar 1959 brochure does not show an RRA, but that is not to say that it wasn't available.
Your links don't work for me, but I know that the lugs were different from the previous RRA lugs.
Hugh Thornton Cheshire, England
In a message dated 11/09/2005 20:15:12 GMT Standard Time, mark@bikesmithdesign.com writes:
A friend has asked me to try to sell an old Raleigh Record Ace. But before I start, I should at least figure out how old it is.
The serial number, RA7062, doesn't fit into the on-line serial # lists I've found. 531 stays and butted main tubes. Oil ports on HT & BB. Single Simplex or Huret shifter braze on. Chrome stay and fork tips. Black with cream (or maybe originally white) HT Airlite front hub (No rear wheel or derailleur) Braze on for Sturmey pulley on seat lug. Has a 1961 Santa Monica CA licence sticker.
http://bikesmithdesign.com/
Does anyone recognize these lugs?
http://bikesmithdesign.com/
Too bad it's a 23". If an inch or 2 smaller, it would be the perfect bike for my NOS Cyclo-Benelux SA conversion and alloy shelled FW.
Mark Stonich; Minneapolis Minnesota
Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 21:52:00 +0000 From: dgranger@comcast.net To: Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: [CR]TA ring WTB - two things I forgot to mention...(Duncan Granger)
Still looking for that TA ring - thanks to those who have replied with helpful suggestions...
Two things I forgot to mention: 1) I'm not picky about number of teeth - anything between 51 and 58 would be fine...
2) If you have some old TA rings lying around, and don't feel like measuring them to see if any are 1/8 inch, TA often (always?) stamped the 1/8 rings with a number "3", often under the stamped number designating the number of teeth on the ring...
Sheldon "TA" Brown, any chance you have one lying around?
Thanks again to all...
Duncan Granger Mountville, PA
Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 22:10:27 +0000 From: b.b.simon@att.net To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: [CR]selling three old friends a raleigh, colnago & tesch
good afternnon, i am selling three bikes on ebay and its hard to let them go; its a lot like losing memebers of your family. a raleigh competition gran sport ebay #7182260596, a red colnago super 7182254921 and a red tesch 101 7182248975. all three bikes are in top riding condition but cosmetically probably are in the 6 to 7 out of ten category. i don't have any more photos but the raleigh and the tesch were at velo rendezvous in 2004 so many of you saw these two. if you have any questions you can of course ask them through ebay or to me at burl.simon@gmail.com (please do not use this email address because sometimes i mass delete cr list emails i'm not interested in and i wouldn't want to delete your question by mistake.) also if you want to view them in person in los angeles just contact me and we can arrange a time.
burl simon in los angeles on 9.11.05
Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 19:04:04 -0400 From: "Ken Sanford" <kanford@comcast.net> To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> Subject: Re: [CR]selling three old friends a raleigh, colnago & tesch
Burl
nice bikes, but can you explain the difference in sizes since you say you ride them all yourself.
A 52cm, a 53 cm, and a 59cm?
I try and keep mine in the 58-59 cm range and have realize that one 60cm Waterford I have is too big. Though I did ride a 56 this summer quite successfully.
Ken Sanford
Kensington, MD
> good afternnon,
> i am selling three bikes on ebay and its hard to let them go; its a lot
> like losing memebers of your family. a raleigh competition gran sport ebay
> #7182260596, a red colnago super 7182254921 and a red tesch 101
> 7182248975. all three bikes are in top riding condition but cosmetically
> probably are in the 6 to 7 out of ten category. i don't have any more
> photos but the raleigh and the tesch were at velo rendezvous in 2004 so
> many of you saw these two. if you have any questions you can of course ask
> them through ebay or to me at burl.simon@gmail.com (please do not use
> this email address because sometimes i mass delete cr list emails i'm not
> interested in and i wouldn't want to delete your question by mistake.)
> also if you want to view them in person in los angeles just contact me and
> we can arrange a time.
>
> burl simon in los angeles on 9.11.05
>
> _______________________________________________
> Classicrendezvous mailing list
> Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> http://www.bikelist.org/
Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 19:18:10 -0400 From: Doug Fattic <fatticbicycles@qtm.net> To: "classicrendezvous@bikelist.org" <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> Subject: [CR] Roth bikes/cable guide
Jay Sexton wrote:
"Doug, this may be more of a topic for framebuilders forum"
Jay, this information is probably more useful on the Classic Rendezvous list since we have stopped putting top of bottom bracket shell gear cable guides on frames (except for special circumstances) many years ago. The problem is that the front part of the front derailleur braze on comes to a point that concentrates the stress right there when honking on the lever if the shift is stubborn. This design fault will create failure in a certain percentage of cases even if it was properly brazed. All of a sudden you saw this design of cable guide disappear for mostly that reason. Well, their are also issues of heating the shell up again after the tubes are in place. Anyway by looking carefully at the position of the braze on's, it might give clues to evaluate the quality of the frame.
I was always strongly influenced by my 1969 Hetchins that had tubes that held the gear cables under the bb shell so that was my preference. Besides it was a little cleaner in looks as well as ability to clean.
The first time I remember seeing these Campy top-of-bb-shell guides was on the Masi my parents bought for me in Milan in Sept of 1972 (it's a V Masi so I presume it was made by Confente). It, of course, has the nice bend that takes the cable from the left side of the frame and angles it to the right.
When I went to Ellis Briggs to learn framebuilding, I was very curious how they got just the right bend in this boss that comes from the factory straight. I thought maybe their was a special mandrel or who knows what kind of complicated tool to bend it to have just the right curve. To my surprise, after Jack Briggs brazed one on to show me, he takes a small hammer and tap, tap, tap, it now has the right bend. It fact it bends pretty easy, it is possible to do it with your hands. Another fantasy of precision broken by practical methods.
This is one area I look to see how careful the builder was in putting on
braze ons. It is with some effort that they end up in the right place.
They should put the cable right in the center of the down tube and the
straight part of the boss should be parallel with the face of the bb shell.
In addition, getting the left and right bosses to put the cable the same
distance from the down tube is also a challenge. My framebuilding buddy
Jeff Bock from Iowa (who does truly beautiful work) made me a special bit
holder to hold them in the right place when brazing.
>From an insiders point of view, if I was a collector of American frames, he
would be on my top five list for sure. It is always a mystery to me why
quality of work is not enough to warrant desirability and value. Quality
and name recognition are independent variables.
Doug Fattic Niles, Michigan
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