RE: "Correct" (Re: [CR]Ssssspeedster's Masi & Proper Twin PlateResto)

(Example: History:Ted Ernst)

From: Edward Brooks <ebrooks@eriwine.com>
To: "'Edward Albert'" <ealbert@bellatlantic.net>, "'Ken Freeeman'" <freesound@comcast.net>
Subject: RE: "Correct" (Re: [CR]Ssssspeedster's Masi & Proper Twin PlateResto)
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 19:42:57 -0600
Organization: Edward Roberts International
In-Reply-To: <439CBAB8.5040106@bellatlantic.net>
Thread-Index: AcX+ra8TiLUXyAQeT7W/oekLoIbOgwABwFvg
cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org

Well now I seem to have stepped into it. I have received some excellent rebuttals so I am going to make the mistake of embellishing what I was trying to convey. Eddie Albert made the very good point that as a former racer his approach was much more pragmatic and the artistic and artisanal niceties of pantagraphed parts just weren't a consideration for him since as a competitor he was likely to damage parts (and frames) with some frequency. I've destroyed my share of equipment through the years so I understand where he is coming from. I fully realize that from a racing standpoint performance (and reliability) were the focus. I'm sure there are folks on the list who will cry out that the drilled out and panto'ed parts provided weight savings (often fairly negligible and with added risk of failure if too zealous) and hence enhanced performance. That said a lot of this for some buyers of these machines was about style. The bikes with their hot colors, elegantly filed lugs which were often drilled out with stylized emblems (couldn't be much weight savings there) looked cool and were, and are, enjoyable to own (or lust after). This personalization of frames with proprietary cut outs no doubt appealed to the egos of the builders as well (and helped them create brand identity). The "personalization"/pantographing of parts was a logical evolution from this. I would point out that these bikes appeal not only to those who raced and rode them due to their wonderful handling, but to those who were mechanically inclined and really appreciated (where appropriate) the quality of materials, skill and embellishments like pantographing, drillium, colored anodizing, etc. As a kid I would see examples of this and be blown away. I still am, and as such I try to build up my bikes in this manner. It allows me to try my hand at and learn about these processes, search out more capable friends when the processes are above my abilities or I don't have access to the necessary equipment, and seek out rarer and nicely designed and created parts, as well as have some fun (!) and hopefully have a few finished pieces that are just a little different and maybe better than the run of the mill (no pun intended). No doubt some of the cool show bikes and efforts of talented friends through the years were an inspiration. I also appreciate that for many component manufacturers and frame builders there were some very real economic realities and it wasn't easy to justify taking the extra time to finish something a little nicer or use a more expensive process or more expensive material even if they would ideally like to have done so. Also not everybody in the business had the requisite skill or knowledge to produce at that level. That's why I think it is important to celebrate the guys that did. Ken Denny made the very good point that in many instances it was the racers and riders who were spec'ing what parts went on their frames, not the builders, and that this was often more prevalent than buying complete bikes when you were looking at that level of machine, and that determinations of what to use were driven (again no pun intended) by user performance and weight considerations, and in some instances personalization. I agree but would add that I well remember and have heard countless stories from friends about how we all bought what we could afford but appreciated and lusted after the things that were beyond our budgets like Campy brakes because they looked gorgeous, were obviously beautifully made compared to the other brakes we were familiar with, and for those of us lucky enough to eventually be able to ride bikes with them performed so much better than other brakes we had tried. We all know that complete bikes often came with the parts packages that the makers could afford or had relationships with as opposed to always using the very best parts/solutions so fully built up bikes were not always as interesting as building it from scratch they way you wanted. Also, for those on a budget, you could start with a frame and buy the components as your funds allowed. Buying a complete bike due to the lump sum cost often meant going with a lesser model than you really wanted. At least in our part of the country it was rare to see lay away or payment plan options on bikes at this level and probably for the best none of us had credit cards in those days! We have all replaced and upgraded parts when things wore out or better solutions came on the market but my point is that for some of us, there is a feeling of accomplishment in taking a great old frame that we either restore or that someone else has restored (unless we are particularly lucky enough to find one in good original condition) and putting it together with high quality parts from the same time period, as well as where possible tricking them out with special parts or specially machined parts. That said I have to agree about the arguments against some of the minutia. Eddie commented on the Martano rims. I'm with him on that one. In my early experiences, some of the older guys rode all sorts of rims like Weinmann woodfills, Scheeren woodfills, Nisi gold anodized, etc. My buddies originally all rode on Fiamme reds and eventually went to Super Champs (a few Mavacs as well). Rightly or wrongly we were never very enamored with Martanos. Even for perfectionists I can't see that there is anything wrong with having a set of oval logo Fiamme red label rims on an early 1970's Masi, especially since they may well be better rims than the Martanos! Edward Robert Brooks Managing Director Edward Roberts International Auctioneers of the Fine and Rare 1262 West Winwood Drive Lake Forest, Illinois 60045 Phone- 847.295.8696 Facsimile- 847.295.8697 Email- ebrooks@eriwine.com Website- http://www.eriwine.com

-----Original Message----- From: classicrendezvous-bounces@bikelist.org [mailto:classicrendezvous-bounces@bikelist.org] On Behalf Of Edward Albert Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2005 5:48 PM To: Ken Freeeman Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: Re: "Correct" (Re: [CR]Ssssspeedster's Masi & Proper Twin PlateResto)

I don't know why I always get into this but......I totally agree with David, Brandon, Ken, etc and have posted so when this was last discussed on the list. My 74 Masi Gran Criterium, bought as a frame, never had a panographed part. Nor, did it want one. To tell you the truth, at the time I never saw, or for that matter, ever heard of a Martano rim. Everybody I knew was racing on Nisi or Fiamme rims than switched to Super Champions of one version or another. Pantographing looked nice but had nothing to do with racing these bikes. Who wanted to pay for that when you knew that you were going to crash and your brake levers, chainsets, etc were going to get bunged up for sure. That stuff was nice (and still is) to look at, but had NOTHING to do with how these bikes were actually raced and ridden. You saw this stuff at the bike show at the NY Coliseum and on the wanabee bikes in Central Park. Edward, would like a pantographed Colnago Gruppo about now, Albert Chappaqua, NY

Ken Freeeman wrote:
>I also want to voice support for Dave's point and Brandon's. If I had owned
>a Masi back in it's day, I'd have done parts replacements as needed or
>wanted with the best stuff available to me. I would not, for example, have
>waited for my LBS to find and source Martano rims when he may have had an
>anodized Mavic on hand and could get me going again sooner. If the bars
>were not suitable for me, I'd have got suitable bars but better if possible.
>I might even have bought used parts and put them on. I think modern
>interpretations of original vintage bikes are perfectly acceptable with
>vintage parts of the day. I would not call them "restorations," however,
>since the term indicates that some previous state is known, and the machine
>has been returned to that state accurately. In many of our vintage
>lightweights, no such states exist, because the frames and parts were bought
>as customized sets.
>
>Ken Freeman, Ann Arbor, MI
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: classicrendezvous-bounces@bikelist.org
>[mailto:classicrendezvous-bounces@bikelist.org] On Behalf Of Brandon Ives
>Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2005 12:24 PM
>To: David Patrick
>Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
>Subject: "Correct" (Re: [CR]Ssssspeedster's Masi & Proper Twin Plate Resto)
>
>Dave I'm 100% with you and have wanted to say these same words for a few
>years now. I do think I understand where the other side is coming from. My
>guess is trying to spec bikes just like the catalog or show photo from the
>time. Of course also many manufacturers had a preferred spec too and sold
>bikes fully kited out and that needs to be taken into account. I will
>probably never own a "correct" bike since the whole idea just bothers me.
>If I had bought the discussed Masi new as a frame you can bet dollars to
>doughnuts that I would have speced it way different than the pics in the
>mags. I really like when I see a bike that reflects the owner as much as
>the builder. For me bikes built as pictured are boring and unimaginative.
>best,
>Brandon"monkeyman"Ives
>Vancouver, B.C.
>
>On Sunday, Dec 11, 2005, at 08:48 US/Pacific, David Patrick wrote:
>
>
>> During Bob Hovey's reply to Steven Maasland, Bob made the comment:
>>"..the hardest part of doing a proper '74 twin plate restoration is
>>finding those engraved Masi ttt bars..". Bob, I mean absolutely no
>>disrespect, so please don't misunderstand me, but this comment bugs
>>the %$&# out of me. Why does a properly restored twin-plate Masi GC
>>need to have engraved Masi 3t bars to be "correct" or properly
>>restored? Is your comment based on the fact that some twin-plate Masi
>>frames were equipped with these bars when purchased as a complete
>>bike? In putting forth these types of comments, some are loosing
>>touch with the fact that these Masi GCs were bought as bare frames and
>>built up with period components of the time. So it would be correct
>>to see these period correct components on a "properly restored '74
>>twin-plate Masi, wouldn't it? I'd say engraved Cinelli bars were the
>>most commonly seen bar on any high-end Italian road bike from from the
>>1970s. Perhaps Bob's comment is based on the fact that engraved Masi
>>3t bars are very rare? I just don't think that in any stretch of the
>>imagination should a '74 twin-plate Masi GC w/engraved Cinelli bars be
>>viewed in a lesser light than the same bike w/engraved Masi 3t bars.
>>I hate to see this mind-set where one type of component is viewed as
>>"correct" for a bike, as rarely is this the case when we're dealing
>>with a period when framesets were quite frequently sold as a
>>stand-alone item and built up to the rider's wish. I've ranted before
>>about how Martano rims are viewed by many as THE "correct" rim for
>>1970s Masi bikes. So, perhaps I'm stirring the pot this morning,
>>which can be a good thing in my mind, so heap it on, my fellow CR
>>members. What say you?
>>
>>
>> Dave Patrick
>> Chelsea, Michigan (no, I haven't had ANY caffeine this morning)