My eyes ain't what they used to be, but isn't that an early Landshark underneath Marilyn Chambers ? Let's ask Don Walker - maybe he can tell.
Wise-ass Mike Fabian in very foggy San Francisco ----- Original Message ----- From: classicrendezvous-request@bikelist.org To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 7:49 PM Subject: Classicrendezvous Digest, Vol 32, Issue 48
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CR
Today's Topics:
1. re: Motobecane Grand Record (L Travers) 2. Newbie Introduction (Steve Demchak) 3. re: SoCal Baldy ride 4. Masi Fiesta at Velo-Rendezvous 5. Re: Masi Fiesta at Velo-Rendezvous Fantastic! 6. re: Masi Fiesta Velo-Rendezvous in Pasadena 7. Sekai 5000 (Todd) 8. KOF Tally 9. Re: KOF Tally (Ed Lutz) 10. Re: KOF Tally (krawls) 11. Re[2]: [CR]KOF Tally (Ed Lutz) 12. Re[2]: [CR]Ken Toda's photo's (Ed Lutz) 13. WTB Cinelli 1A Old Logo 100-105 mm stem (P.C. Kohler) 14. Alan frame. (Alan Kearsley) 15. What does it really mean. Re: [CR]KOF Tally (Brandon Ives) 16. Re: What does it really mean. Re: [CR]KOF Tally 17. Re: What does it really mean. Re: [CR]KOF Tally
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 17:42:23 -0500 From: L Travers <lat7575@swbell.net> To: sasimon@twcny.rr.com Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: re: [CR]Motobecane Grand Record Message-ID: <42FA82CF.4050903@swbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 1
> > >I've been riding what I know is a 1972+/- Motobecane, and I believed the >model to be a Grand Record, since 1973 when I bought it used from a >racer in college. I changed the rear to give me some climbing gears and >just rode it, until last year when I broke down and bought a Moser steel >frame bike with all the nice new stuff on it. So now I would like to >consider restoring the Moto. > >Problem #1: Due to some abuse and neglect, most of the decals are gone, >including the Grand Record label. What I have read here says the GR was >distinctive black and red, but mine is silver/black. Any feedback on >this? What other clues to the model? I have all the original Campy NR >derailers and shifters (the rear has been in a bag for over 30 years and >looks new), but some of the cable clamps are rusty. The brakes are >Mafac Racer (original, but levers replaced with generic 10 yrs ago). The >seat was a Brooks, which I kept for years and then in some over >ambitious barn cleaning it got tossed(!!!) > >
This was about the time I bought a Grand Touring and shorly after, my Lejeune. I wanted a top of the line Moto real bad. I recall the Le Champion model being in silver with black pinstriping. But IIRC, Le Champion had all Campy, including brakes. You do not mention cranks...that would probably be the determining factor.
>#2: I know it was Reynolds 531, because for years that decal was intact, >but now gone. Can these be had, and does it clue in the bike model? > >
Check with Jerry Moos (on the list). He had some French 531 decals made up. Very nice. If he cannot provide, I bought three sets and would probably part with one. There was also a set on eBuy recently. Both GR and LeC were full 531.
> >#3: Would a quality paint job HAVE to be in the original colors to be
>legit, or am I allowed some artistic license in the world of classics? >Are accurate decals available? > > It is your bike, paint it as you see fit. Ask yourself what your goal
is for the bike and go from there. I believe most painters can reproduce the decals you need. Check the archives for painter recommendations. I won't mention any names as I do not wish to inadvertently sligth anyone of our fine members who are also frame painters/restorers. But I will say there are no slouches among them.
>Any feedback, direction, recommended painters, etc, appreciated. > >Steve Simon > I am sure there are other who can expand on this more.
If you decide it is too much for you to handle, drop me a line. :-)
-- Lynn Travers Hazelwood, MO
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Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 16:01:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Steve Demchak <rabbickup@yahoo.com> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: [CR]Newbie Introduction Message-ID: <20050810230121.56586.qmail@web53701.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: list Message: 2
Howdy folks, I'm a newbie to CR and reside in Seattle.
Here are some pics of my older junk:
http://home.comcast.net/
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 16:03:49 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
From: chasds@mindspring.com
To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
Subject: [CR]re: SoCal Baldy ride
Message-ID:
<17442292.1123715029447.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net
>
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Message: 3
Brian is not chopped liver...I just flat-out forgot to include him in our so-far rather exclusive little group.
Updated group for the Baldy ride!:
Brian Baylis Rob O'Callaghan Chuck Schmidt Doland Cheung Jack Bissell Charles 'n' Carmen
The weather forcast for the Glendora area couldn't be better for this time of year: 82 degrees and sunny with moderate humidity on Sunday.
C'mon you guys--and gals--this is a very beautiful ride, and you'll feel like you really DID something worth doing this weekend.. <g> And it won't even be that hot!
You wouldn't believe the excuses for not coming that I've seen so far...
If you can make it, come join us! The ride departs at 9am from Pioneer Park on Sierra Madra in Azusa.
Lunch in Claremont after the climb and descent.
Charles Andrews SoCal ------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 16:09:11 -0700 (GMT-07:00) From: chasds@mindspring.com To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: [CR]Masi Fiesta at Velo-Rendezvous Message-ID: <8209695.1123715352028.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Reply-To: chasds@mindspring.com Message: 4
Kendra's post about her obsession with Masis reminded me to remind everyone, in these lazy days of Summer, that the Velo-Rendezvous in Pasadena is just two months away. That time will FLY by!
Among many other things (including some cool rides), there will be a Masi Fiesta! We hope to include every flavor of Masi from the 1950s to the 1980s. And there are a lot of flavors. However, as of this writing, it looks like we'll be able to have a sample of nearly every style of Masi made in those years.
We're also looking for any and all Masi-related photos, catalogs, clothing, novelty stuff, and other memorabilia you have to display with, or without, your bike.
If you have a cool Masi to share, bring it along. If you just want to oogle Masis, plan to attend. Remember, you can't just show up and display your bike; you have to register for the event, preferably in advance.
See http://www.velo-retro.com for all the details.
See you in October!
Charles Andrews SoCal ------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 23:34:40 +0000 From: hersefan@comcast.net To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: Re: [CR]Masi Fiesta at Velo-Rendezvous Fantastic! Message-ID: <081020052334.8219.42FA8F0F000D8E570000201B2200737478020E000A9C9D0A08@com cast.net> Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: list Message: 5
The Masi fiesta is coming at a great time - I'm getting more excited about Masi bikes again. Masi was my first really good race bike.
I hope things fall into place so that I can finally make Chuck's event this year.
Does anyone else from Colorado want to drive out?
Mike "hoping for a road trip" Kone in Boulder CO
-------------- Original message --------------
> Kendra's post about her obsession with Masis reminded
> me to remind everyone, in these lazy days of Summer,
> that the Velo-Rendezvous in Pasadena is just two months
> away. That time will FLY by!
>
> Among many other things (including some cool rides),
> there will be a Masi Fiesta! We hope to include every
> flavor of Masi from the 1950s to the 1980s. And there
> are a lot of flavors. However, as of this writing, it looks
> like we'll be able to have a sample of nearly every
> style of Masi made in those years.
>
> We're also looking for any and all Masi-related photos, catalogs,
> clothing, novelty stuff, and other memorabilia you have
> to display with, or without, your bike.
>
> If you have a cool Masi to share, bring it along. If you just
> want to oogle Masis, plan to attend. Remember, you can't just
> show up and display your bike; you have to register
> for the event, preferably in advance.
>
> See http://www.velo-retro.com for all the details.
>
> See you in October!
>
> Charles Andrews
> SoCal
> _______________________________________________
> Classicrendezvous mailing list
> Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> http://www.bikelist.org/
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Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 16:38:04 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
From: chasds@mindspring.com
To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
Subject: [CR]re: Masi Fiesta Velo-Rendezvous in Pasadena
Message-ID:
<28334875.1123717087851.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net
>
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Message: 6
Note well: as you can see on the Velo-Rendezvous web-site, the main theme of the Velo this year is fancy-lugged British bikes.
The Masi Fiesta is an informal Fun Thing, in addition to the main theme.
Charles Andrews SoCal ------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 16:54:09 -0700 (PDT) From: "Todd" <schneider1@runbox.com> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: [CR]Sekai 5000 Message-ID: <E1E30Og-0002Qz-02@fenris.runbox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Reply-To: schneider1@runbox.com Message: 7
Hi I bought a Sekai 5000 track bike earlier this year and I'm looking for any info on it. Cheers Todd, Seattle See it here (temporarily with WoundUp forks): http://www.fixedgeargallery.c om/2005/aug/Todd_2.htm ------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 20:05:35 EDT From: Jon3084@aol.com To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Cc: richardsachs@juno.com Subject: [CR]KOF Tally Message-ID: <129.62c43cd7.302bf04f@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 8
After 24 hours the Tally is in..........
CR list members WHO HAVE EMAILED me have purchased 27 bikes in the last 5 years or so. I received about 15 emails total. My only criteria was that the bike was steel, KOF, and purchased from the builder, not second hand. Below are my observations and results by builder.
CR lurkers have some really fantastic bikes.
It seems that CR list members who are the most active posters (except for one, you know who you are) didn't claim to have ordered any KOF frames or bikes.
More than a few list members have bought a KOF frame second hand from the builder.
There are some really great builders none of us claim to have purchased from in the last few years (Dave Kirk, Sacha White, Doug Fattic).
Results below:
Sachs (6) Baylis (4) Kvale (2) Nagasawa(2) and one each of
Goodrich,Landshark,Bates,Caygil,Weigle,Hampsten,Strawberry,Kendria,Hetche ns,TiCycles,Mercian,Zaconato.Pegoretti.
If there are more I'll update the list.
Jonathan Greene Oviedo FL
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Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 19:23:38 -0600 From: Ed Lutz <edlutz@earthlink.net> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Cc: richardsachs@juno.com Subject: Re: [CR]KOF Tally Message-ID: <1203977009.20050810192338@earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <129.62c43cd7.302bf04f@aol.com> References: <129.62c43cd7.302bf04f@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Reply-To: Ed Lutz <edlutz@earthlink.net> Message: 9
OK, I'm sure the answer to this question is pretty evident once you know the answer but I cant figure it out. Be nice, I'm new in these parts...but what the heck does KOF mean???
Ed Loveland, CO.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 18:25:11 -0700 From: krawls <krawls100@gmail.com> To: Ed Lutz <edlutz@earthlink.net> Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Cc: richardsachs@juno.com Subject: Re: [CR]KOF Tally Message-ID: <606a6fe0508101825735f8b6f@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <1203977009.20050810192338@earthlink.net> References: <129.62c43cd7.302bf04f@aol.com> <1203977009.20050810192338@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 10
Keeper of the Flame. Karen Rawls Winchester VA
On 8/10/05, Ed Lutz <edlutz@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> OK, I'm sure the answer to this question is pretty evident once you
> know the answer but I cant figure it out. Be nice, I'm new in these
> parts...but what the heck does KOF mean???
>
>
> Ed
> Loveland, CO.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Classicrendezvous mailing list
> Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> http://www.bikelist.org/
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Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 19:28:28 -0600 From: Ed Lutz <edlutz@earthlink.net> To: krawls <krawls100@gmail.com> Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Cc: richardsachs@juno.com Subject: Re[2]: [CR]KOF Tally Message-ID: <671564039.20050810192828@earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <606a6fe0508101825735f8b6f@mail.gmail.com> References: <129.62c43cd7.302bf04f@aol.com> <1203977009.20050810192338@earthlink.net> <606a6fe0508101825735f8b6f@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Reply-To: Ed Lutz <edlutz@earthlink.net> Message: 11
Wednesday, August 10, 2005, 7:25:11 PM, you wrote:
> Keeper of the Flame. > Karen Rawls > Winchester VA
OK... Would that be Keeper Of The Flame as in traditional builders using old time methods and materials to build proper traditional rolling works of art???
Ed Loveland, CO.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 19:37:43 -0600 From: Ed Lutz <edlutz@earthlink.net> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: Re[2]: [CR]Ken Toda's photo's Message-ID: <423528404.20050810193743@earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <p06230918bf1ff84a2512@[10\.0\.1\.16]> References: <BF1E467B.6F40%greg@nofatcomm.com> <B8A6FFC0-9FCB-4DDC-8EB5-3CA2DC578AF0@tiscali.co.uk> <p06230918bf1ff84a2512@[10.0.1.16]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Reply-To: Ed Lutz <edlutz@earthlink.net> Message: 12
> My own studio setup uses nylon fishline to hang the bike from above. > This, however wouldn't work for Ken's setup, 'cause he uses tungsten > light (light bulbs) not studio flash. It would take too long to get > the bike set up and to get it to stop swinging back and forth...the > tungsten light requires fairly long exposures if you want the lens > stopped down far enough to give good depth of field.
In the motorcycle world we use a small prop stand to hold up bikes for studio shoots. Its just a short piece of either wood doweling (large diameter for a motorcycle) or aluminum bar stock. On a motorcycle you just find a solid place to stick the prop stand so the bike stays upright. Sometimes an off side foot peg, or often the rear axle nut. If you position it all correctly the stand isn't visible. It would be harder to hide a stand behind a bicycle but if the prop stand was small enough it wouldn't detract from the picture as much as a large shop stand.
Ed Loveland, CO.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 22:06:19 -0400 From: "P.C. Kohler" <kohl57@starpower.net> To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> Subject: [CR]WTB Cinelli 1A Old Logo 100-105 mm stem Message-ID: <005901c59e19$438e08c0$363ca4d8@D36MSL71> References: <20050809004839.31268.qmail@web81804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain;format=flowed;charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 13
Gents, gotta get my Cinelli SC back on the road before the summer is over.
Need a Cinelli 1A old logo 100-105 mm stem in good condition or NOS.
Thanks.
Peter Kohler Washington DC USA ------------------------------
Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 09:48:34 +1000 From: "Alan Kearsley" <footscray1@optusnet.com.au> To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> Subject: [CR]Alan frame. Message-ID: <000c01c59ae1$5c7333a0$acb41cd3@vic.optushome.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 14
Gentlemen,
I need help as I have acquired an aluminium frame of unknown age. Beautifully made lugged frame, has Fangio decals, except for the top tube which has Alan decals. Steering head lugs have engraved vine leaves top and bottom, Alan engraved on both the fork shoulders, Campy bottom bracket, and checkouts on most of the lugs, and on the top of the seat tube is stamped Super 485. There is also an Alan decal(world map) on the front of the steering tube. If anyone can help identify age etc of this frame I would be most obliged.
Best wishes, Alan Kearsley Melbourne Australia.
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Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 19:16:33 -0700 From: Brandon Ives <brandon@ivycycles.com> To: Jon3084@aol.com Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Cc: richardsachs@juno.com Subject: What does it really mean. Re: [CR]KOF Tally Message-ID: <56E46FDB-E696-44D2-BB20-88A6E703A901@ivycycles.com> In-Reply-To: <129.62c43cd7.302bf04f@aol.com> References: <129.62c43cd7.302bf04f@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v733) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 15
On Aug 10, 2005, at 5:05 PM, Jon3084@aol.com wrote: > Sachs (6) > Baylis (4) > Kvale (2) > Nagasawa(2) > and one each of > Goodrich,Landshark,Bates,Caygil,Weigle,Hampsten,Strawberry,Kendria,Het > chens,TiCycles,Mercian,Zaconato.Pegoretti.
How exactly is Ti Cycles a KOF? I like Dave and all, but he and the lads build a large majority tig welded titanium frames. Or Pegoretti
for that matter? Does one lugged frame in a line-up make it KOF. If so is De Rosa even though they make the King along with the Primato?
And Hampsten too. . . do they even build any of their own frames, or are they contract built by someone else?
This leads me to something I've been meaning to say for a long time.
KOF is a bunch of hooey. If you really wanted a KOF frame you would use brass only and standard tube diameters for starters. Lugs do not
a "classic" bike make folks. Heck I build what most folks call KOF frames and would love the business that having Keeper Of The Flame attached to my frames would bring, but instead my motto is "Modern Frames, Traditional Techniques" I'll have none of this KOF bull puckey. If the list really is about bikes built before 1984 lets keep the bikes within that time line.
Ok, so if people insist on using this silly title KOF for builders today lets set some base rules. Try these on for size: 1. Lugs do not make it KOF. There were many other joining methods back in the day. 2. Steel doesn't make it KOF. We've already decided that early Kleins, Teledyles, Grafteks, ETC are list worthy. 3. The old builders didn't use oversized tubes, except in rare cases
like with some of the French bikes and tandems. 4. Files were used for mitering tubes. The small bike builders of yore didn't use huge mills or much serious tooling for doing their miters or building. 5. blah, blah, blah. . . I could go on but really think people who out there really builds bikes the way they did in the old days. I know a few, but only a few that still build that way.
The frames people revere from the past are quite different from the frames made today and that should be what makes them special. There are many builders building today, but they're not building the same way or the same frames and that to should be OK too. I think we should get back to what this list is about classic lightweight bicycles built before 1984. If you want to talk about cool lugged steel frames built after 1984 that should be a separate list.
Thanks for letting me rant, Brandon"monkeyman"Ives Coeur d'Alene, Idaho ++++++++++++++++++ "Sine coffea nihil sum." --Sarah Vowell-- ++++++++++++++++++
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 22:32:56 EDT From: Jon3084@aol.com To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: Re: What does it really mean. Re: [CR]KOF Tally Message-ID: <1ed.41b4ba53.302c12d8@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 16
Whoaaaaa Brandon, the big move got you stressed?
Check out Dale's words
"The Classic Rendezvous list focusses on bicycles made from the beginning of the Twentieth Century, up to 1983. We also consider "on topic" makers of very fine bicycles that can be seen as "Keepers of the Flame" for classic style cycling.... New age welded, injection molded, or glued modern bicycles belong in some other mail list, not this one! Ditto for mountain bikes & balloon tired bikes. Those items have merit, but they just do not belong here."
If a Hampsten frame is built in Steve Hampstens garage by Martin Tweedy is he a builder? Check the Archives for your answer as all the opinions are there.
If you build bikes as cool as the Lugged Ti cycle with the polished stainless machined twin plate fork crown I read about you'll do fine as Ivy cycles.
Don't take all this so serious, maybe there are some clues in it for you as a builder if you'll open your eyes a bit.
Jonathan Greene Oviedo FL
In a message dated 8/10/2005 10:16:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, brandon@ivycycles.com writes: How exactly is Ti Cycles a KOF? I like Dave and all, but he and the lads build a large majority tig welded titanium frames. Or Pegoretti
for that matter? Does one lugged frame in a line-up make it KOF. If so is De Rosa even though they make the King along with the Primato?
And Hampsten too. . . do they even build any of their own frames, or are they contract built by someone else?
This leads me to something I've been meaning to say for a long time.
KOF is a bunch of hooey. If you really wanted a KOF frame you would use brass only and standard tube diameters for starters. Lugs do not
a "classic" bike make folks. Heck I build what most folks call KOF frames and would love the business that having Keeper Of The Flame attached to my frames would bring, but instead my motto is "Modern Frames, Traditional Techniques" I'll have none of this KOF bull puckey. If the list really is about bikes built before 1984 lets keep the bikes within that time line.
Ok, so if people insist on using this silly title KOF for builders today lets set some base rules. Try these on for size: 1. Lugs do not make it KOF. There were many other joining methods back in the day. 2. Steel doesn't make it KOF. We've already decided that early Kleins, Teledyles, Grafteks, ETC are list worthy. 3. The old builders didn't use oversized tubes, except in rare cases
like with some of the French bikes and tandems. 4. Files were used for mitering tubes. The small bike builders of yore didn't use huge mills or much serious tooling for doing their miters or building. 5. blah, blah, blah. . . I could go on but really think people who out there really builds bikes the way they did in the old days. I know a few, but only a few that still build that way.
The frames people revere from the past are quite different from the frames made today and that should be what makes them special. There are many builders building today, but they're not building the same way or the same frames and that to should be OK too. I think we should get back to what this list is about classic lightweight bicycles built before 1984. If you want to talk about cool lugged steel frames built after 1984 that should be a separate list.
Thanks for letting me rant, Brandon"monkeyman"Ives Coeur d'Alene, Idaho ++++++++++++++++++ "Sine coffea nihil sum." --Sarah Vowell-- ++++++++++++++++++
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Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 22:52:33 EDT From: Jon3084@aol.com To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: Re: What does it really mean. Re: [CR]KOF Tally Message-ID: <148.4a088cd9.302c1771@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Precedence: list Message: 17
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