Re: [CR]Richie Sachs adds a comment..Re: NAHBS Thoughts

(Example: Events:Cirque du Cyclisme)

From: <rodk3d@comcast.net>
To: oroboyz@aol.com, bgcycles@svn.net
Subject: Re: [CR]Richie Sachs adds a comment..Re: NAHBS Thoughts
Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2006 22:18:26 +0000
cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org

Maybe if you can't beat them, you should join them. Markets change and if you don't change with them you will fail. I think this is true in any business. Seen any "record" stores lately? I would happily pay "extra" over a Surly or Soma for a Taiwanese built, Bruce Gordon designed touring frame. I know it isn't the direction Bruce wants to go, but a guy has to eat. Seems to me the Rock-n-Road and BLT are perfectly suited to being built overseas.

Please don't hate me Bruce, I need a couple of racks!

cheers, kudos and success to all you framebuilders!!!!! Rod Kronenberg Fort Collins, CO


-------------- Original message --------------
From: oroboyz@aol.com

> (I wish E-Richie would rejoin the CR list so I don't have to relay

\r?\n> stuff, but I still am glad everyone is kicking this around...I really

\r?\n> love what these guys make...)

\r?\n>

\r?\n> << Bruce wrote:

\r?\n> "I have sold 3 frames in the last 16 years."....and ...."Most of my

\r?\n> business for the last 16 years has been making more utilitarian TIG

\r?\n> welded touring frames and racks."

\r?\n>

\r?\n> Richard replys:

\r?\n> << At least 16 years ago you decide to go price-point and compete with

\r?\n> the very companies that would eventually give the consumer,

\r?\n> consumer, a choice. Had you not done this, perhaps you would have made

\r?\n> and sold more "custom" frames. But you gave your market an option, and

\r?\n> that option became your cash cow, enabling you to (also) make (only)

\r?\n> one frame every 5 years. Now you say even the cash cow isn't producing

\r?\n> milk.

\r?\n> I came away from the '05 Houston show and from the San Jose show from

\r?\n> last weekend pleasantly amazed at the enthusiasm and zeal that all the

\r?\n> builders - particularly the newer guys - brought to their work.

\r?\n> I feel that this is what carries them and gives them a reason to come

\r?\n> in to work every day. We all felt that way once. Some of us still do.

\r?\n> Maybe you should infect yourself with a shot of what's out there. Let

\r?\n> it be contagious. The sky is not falling, ya' know.

\r?\n> e-RICHIEĀ©TĀ® >>

\r?\n>

\r?\n> Dale Brown

\r?\n> Greensboro, NC USA

\r?\n> http://www.classicrendezvous.com

\r?\n>

\r?\n>

\r?\n>

\r?\n> -----Original Message-----

\r?\n> From: Bruce Gordon

\r?\n> Subject: RE: [BOB] NAHBS Thoughts (late and long and opinionated)

\r?\n>

\r?\n> Someone asked my purpose in writing about this.

\r?\n> I'm writing to expose "the dirty little secret of the bike biz", that

\r?\n> no one

\r?\n> wants to talk about.

\r?\n> First I want to commend Don for the show. It was the most unique

\r?\n> gathering

\r?\n> I have been to in my 35 years in the bike business, it was also the most

\r?\n> troubling.

\r?\n> I write this because I think most of the visitors are totally unaware

\r?\n> of the

\r?\n> plight of the small builder.

\r?\n> First - I really like bikes, I like making them, I like thinking about

\r?\n> them,

\r?\n> I like riding them - I hate the bike business. Like many of you - I

\r?\n> might

\r?\n> say that I am passionate about bikes.

\r?\n> One of the most disturbing moments of the weekend was when I was having

\r?\n> dinner at the hotel after spending an exhausting day at the show

\r?\n> talking to

\r?\n> people. A builder whom I really respect, who has been building about as

\r?\n> long as I have, quietly ordered a bowl of soup. I could tell it was not

\r?\n> because he was not hungry - it was because entrees were $15 to $20.

\r?\n> In the last 18 months I have been to 5 shows like the NAHBS. Don's

\r?\n> show in

\r?\n> San Jose was the biggest. I have been to the Velo Rendezvous in

\r?\n> Pasadena 2

\r?\n> times, the Cirque in North Carolina, and the Handmade Bike Fair in Tokyo

\r?\n> Japan. In each show except the NAHBS I have won first place awards for

\r?\n> my

\r?\n> bikes. I am humbled and honored by the awards. However, it has cost

\r?\n> over

\r?\n> $20,000 with almost no sales. I have sold 3 frames in the last 16

\r?\n> years. I

\r?\n> was hoping to sell some of the prize winners at the NAHBS show to recoup

\r?\n> some of my expenses. No luck (they are still all for sale) and I spent

\r?\n> $2000 to attend and display.

\r?\n> Making the fancy lugged frames bikes is very therapeutic for me. It

\r?\n> gets me

\r?\n> back to my roots.

\r?\n> At the NAHBS I got to talk to some builders I have known and admired

\r?\n> for 30+

\r?\n> years. We talked bikes, but we also talked business. I handed out an

\r?\n> anonymous questionnaire I had printed up about the business. Some of

\r?\n> the

\r?\n> answers might shock you. The first question was "what should a

\r?\n> competent

\r?\n> frame builder earn a year?" The most common answer was $40,000 to

\r?\n> $50,000

\r?\n> per year - certainly not Greedy. I have a 30 year old friend who is a

\r?\n> Union

\r?\n> Plumber who just turned Journeyman. He just started a job in San

\r?\n> Francisco

\r?\n> doing copper piping in a new Condominium at $43 per hour + health

\r?\n> coverage +

\r?\n> retirement. I should have been a plumber. I could have afforded to go

\r?\n> the

\r?\n> Plumbing Shows and show off my fancy edged carved Copper plumbing

\r?\n> fittings.

\r?\n> I found in the questionnaire that no one including the well known small

\r?\n> builders even made $35,000. Most were about $20,000, which is where I

\r?\n> fit

\r?\n> in. I asked if they could ever retire on their current income -

\r?\n> everyone

\r?\n> replied NO. As for health insurance - 75% had no insurance, or if they

\r?\n> had

\r?\n> insurance - most had it through their spouse.

\r?\n> When I started building in 1974 with Albert Eisentraut he would say:

\r?\n> "You

\r?\n> won't get rich building frames, but, you can make a living."

\r?\n> For the first 28 years of my business I could always afford an employee,

\r?\n> that has not been the case for the last 4 years. Even working alone I

\r?\n> have

\r?\n> had to dip into my personal savings to pay the bills. If sales stay the

\r?\n> same, I have 1 or 2 more years left before my savings are gone.

\r?\n> Most of my business for the last 16 years has been making more

\r?\n> utilitarian

\r?\n> TIG welded touring frames and racks. But even those TIGed bike sales

\r?\n> have

\r?\n> dropped from 60 to 70 bikes a year to 25 last year. Is it because my

\r?\n> stuff

\r?\n> is lousy?? I don't think so. I think I make pretty good, reasonably

\r?\n> priced

\r?\n> touring stuff.

\r?\n> What has happened is that the business has been taken over by what I

\r?\n> call

\r?\n> "Marketers". People who have discovered that "Why make it yourself if

\r?\n> you

\r?\n> can have it made overseas for a lot less?". That way you can spend

\r?\n> more on

\r?\n> marketing, which seems to work better. Fine, some will say, THAT IS

\r?\n> CAPITALISM!. But, something to think about is this. Over the past 30

\r?\n> odd

\r?\n> years I have seen many innovations in the bike biz. Almost all were

\r?\n> from 1

\r?\n> to 3 person shops. A couple that come to mind are Merlin, the first

\r?\n> viable

\r?\n> Titanium frames (early TI attempts, Teledyne, etc. just did not work)

\r?\n> and

\r?\n> especially Mountain Bikes. Now, if you go into a bike shop - 90 to 95%

\r?\n> of

\r?\n> Mountain Bikes are made in Taiwan or China. If we were to wait for the

\r?\n> Taiwanese or Chinese to invent the Mountain Bike - we would still be

\r?\n> waiting.

\r?\n> One of my most vivid memories of my first trip to France in the late

\r?\n> 1980's

\r?\n> was that it was a country that almost everyone drove French cars. Not

\r?\n> because they were the best, they weren't (they have vastly improved

\r?\n> since),

\r?\n> but because they were built by French people, and they liked to support

\r?\n> their own industry.

\r?\n> What has hurt my business the most are the Rivendells, Surlys, Somas,

\r?\n> Kogswells, etc. I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT THE QUALITY OF THEIR

\r?\n> PRODUCTS!!!!!

\r?\n> When Rivendell started - they were only going to be made in USA, then,

\r?\n> maybe

\r?\n> some made in Japan, then, OK maybe some from Taiwan. It is a slippery

\r?\n> slope, and there is NO chairlift back to the top of the mountain.

\r?\n> For me in California, I cannot compete with a $249 wholesale Surly

\r?\n> Touring

\r?\n> frame. I know the argument - we are better in the USA doing the

\r?\n> designing

\r?\n> and outsourcing the production. B.S. - People in India, Taiwan and

\r?\n> China

\r?\n> have the same computers we have. In fact, my Hewlett Packard computer

\r?\n> as

\r?\n> made in China. They also have people who can use them. The only jobs

\r?\n> that

\r?\n> can not be outsourced are the jobs pouring your coffee at Starbucks,

\r?\n> and the

\r?\n> job wearing an "Orange Apron" and saying - "Welcome to Home Depot".

\r?\n> That gets me back to the question of why I wrote the original post. If

\r?\n> we

\r?\n> want to have the passionate, small, innovative builders - we have to

\r?\n> start

\r?\n> buying from them. We need to buy from the people who are passionate

\r?\n> about

\r?\n> building them, NOT just from the passionate people who Market them. I

\r?\n> doubt

\r?\n> that the factory workers in Taiwan, or China, etc. are passionate about

\r?\n> bikes like you are.

\r?\n>

\r?\n> If you got this far - thanks for reading and letting me get this off my

\r?\n> chest.

\r?\n> Regards,

\r?\n> Bruce Gordon

\r?\n> Bruce Gordon Cycles

\r?\n> http://www.bgcycles.com