Jalon wrote, I could stand at the top of a mountain and scream at the world that I make the world's best frames however if I do not get any industry support I cannot sell any frames.
Dazza replies, ugh???? NAHBS, What a brilliant show. I could never have dreamed of something like NAHBS ten years ago. Joe Cosgrove {my painter} and I were talking about this yesterday. I would have been there but for commitments here with our national cycling team, and I live on the other side of the Pacific! I have sulked the whole time the show was on, because I was not there. We will all see all at NAHBS 2007
Jalon wrote, For the most part craftsmanship is dead in America. Dazza, If it is dead in the USA we must be fossilized down here! Jalon, sorry mate, it is booming in the USA. HAHBS proves it. Ten, 15 20 25 years ago I never saw anything like what you could have seen at this years NAHBS. There has, was traces of it around in the USA but it was not easily found. If it is commerce you want, your dreaming, it went to China 10 years ago.
Jalon wrote, It is about bragging rights to how much you saved more than what you purchased. Dazza, you don't want those clients! You want to people who appreciate and cherish what you can do for them. The answer lies in that. It lies within you! Not the fault of the outside world. And I will add, if you think you will make it all happen with a 40 hour working week you are better off indulging in your passion for photography. If it is not to be, it is not to be. If your reading this then we all mostly live a charmed life, go and look at real poverty and suffering.
Cheers from I have had sleepless nights conjuring, dreaming, designing ideas for our next years NAHBS visit Dazza http://www.llewellynbikes.com
<classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>; <internet-bob@bikelist.org> Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 8:23 AM Subject: [Frame] RE: [BOB] NAHBS Thoughts (late and long and opinionated)
>
> AMEN!
>
> I talked with Henry James recently and he indicated that he was surprised
> that someone with my talents doesn't have very much work. I indicated to
him
> that I could stand at the top of a mountain and scream at the world that I
> make the world's best frames however if I do not get any industry support
I
> cannot sell any frames.
>
> For the most part craftsmanship is dead in America. It is about bragging
> rights to how much you saved more than what you purchased.
>
> Currently I make "my living" at photography. (Type in Wisconsin Nature
> Photography) and you will find Lone Hawk's nest photography.
>
> If people are only concerned about price and not what they really are
> purchasing, then marketing has won. Belief systems are based on assuming
> details that are "Marketed". Not that I have contemplating on departing
> from this thing that I love, however without support from those who can
make
> a difference we may only become existential thinkers.
>
> 550 pages a day requested a day from my web site. 3 frame sales in 9
years.
> We are oversaturated in consumer goods and we really don't know what to
> purchase next unless we know we got "a good deal"
>
> I was waiting to hear if anyone actually paid for their trip with
purchases
> from buyers. I have been at a number of "shows" and only found out it was
> better to go as a "spectator".
>
> Jalon Hawk
>
> Desperadocycles.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Sorry about the cross posting - But, I thought this might be interesting
to
> people who do not subscribe to all the groups
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mann, Dave [mailto:damann@mitre.org]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 11:15 AM
> To: bgcycles@svn.net; internet-bob@bikelist.org
> Subject: RE: [BOB] NAHBS Thoughts (late and long and opinionated)
>
>
> """""While I find this to be very interesting, I'm not sure what
> to do with this information. Perhaps I'm confused with what
> your desired affect is with putting this information out."""""
>
> Someone asked my purpose in writing about this.
> I'm writing to expose "the dirty little secret of the bike biz", that no
one
> wants to talk about.
> First I want to commend Don for the show. It was the most unique
gathering
> I have been to in my 35 years in the bike business, it was also the most
> troubling.
> I write this because I think most of the visitors are totally unaware of
the
> plight of the small builder.
> First - I really like bikes, I like making them, I like thinking about
them,
> I like riding them - I hate the bike business. Like many of you - I might
> say that I am passionate about bikes.
> One of the most disturbing moments of the weekend was when I was having
> dinner at the hotel after spending an exhausting day at the show talking
to
> people. A builder whom I really respect, who has been building about as
> long as I have, quietly ordered a bowl of soup. I could tell it was not
> because he was not hungry - it was because entrees were $15 to $20.
> In the last 18 months I have been to 5 shows like the NAHBS. Don's show
in
> San Jose was the biggest. I have been to the Velo Rendezvous in Pasadena
2
> times, the Cirque in North Carolina, and the Handmade Bike Fair in Tokyo
> Japan. In each show except the NAHBS I have won first place awards for my
> bikes. I am humbled and honored by the awards. However, it has cost over
> $20,000 with almost no sales. I have sold 3 frames in the last 16 years.
I
> was hoping to sell some of the prize winners at the NAHBS show to recoup
> some of my expenses. No luck (they are still all for sale) and I spent
> $2000 to attend and display.
> Making the fancy lugged frames bikes is very therapeutic for me. It gets
me
> back to my roots.
> At the NAHBS I got to talk to some builders I have known and admired for
30+
> years. We talked bikes, but we also talked business. I handed out an
> anonymous questionnaire I had printed up about the business. Some of the
> answers might shock you. The first question was "what should a competent
> frame builder earn a year?" The most common answer was $40,000 to $50,000
> per year - certainly not Greedy. I have a 30 year old friend who is a
Union
> Plumber who just turned Journeyman. He just started a job in San
Francisco
> doing copper piping in a new Condominium at $43 per hour + health coverage
+
> retirement. I should have been a plumber. I could have afforded to go
the
> Plumbing Shows and show off my fancy edged carved Copper plumbing
fittings.
> I found in the questionnaire that no one including the well known small
> builders even made $35,000. Most were about $20,000, which is where I fit
> in. I asked if they could ever retire on their current income - everyone
> replied NO. As for health insurance - 75% had no insurance, or if they
had
> insurance - most had it through their spouse.
> When I started building in 1974 with Albert Eisentraut he would say: "You
> won't get rich building frames, but, you can make a living."
> For the first 28 years of my business I could always afford an employee,
> that has not been the case for the last 4 years. Even working alone I
have
> had to dip into my personal savings to pay the bills. If sales stay the
> same, I have 1 or 2 more years left before my savings are gone.
> Most of my business for the last 16 years has been making more utilitarian
> TIG welded touring frames and racks. But even those TIGed bike sales have
> dropped from 60 to 70 bikes a year to 25 last year. Is it because my
stuff
> is lousy?? I don't think so. I think I make pretty good, reasonably
priced
> touring stuff.
> What has happened is that the business has been taken over by what I call
> "Marketers". People who have discovered that "Why make it yourself if you
> can have it made overseas for a lot less?". That way you can spend more
on
> marketing, which seems to work better. Fine, some will say, THAT IS
> CAPITALISM!. But, something to think about is this. Over the past 30 odd
> years I have seen many innovations in the bike biz. Almost all were from
1
> to 3 person shops. A couple that come to mind are Merlin, the first
viable
> Titanium frames (early TI attempts, Teledyne, etc. just did not work) and
> especially Mountain Bikes. Now, if you go into a bike shop - 90 to 95% of
> Mountain Bikes are made in Taiwan or China. If we were to wait for the
> Taiwanese or Chinese to invent the Mountain Bike - we would still be
> waiting.
> One of my most vivid memories of my first trip to France in the late
1980's
> was that it was a country that almost everyone drove French cars. Not
> because they were the best, they weren't (they have vastly improved
since),
> but because they were built by French people, and they liked to support
> their own industry.
> What has hurt my business the most are the Rivendells, Surlys, Somas,
> Kogswells, etc. I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT THE QUALITY OF THEIR PRODUCTS!!!!!
> When Rivendell started - they were only going to be made in USA, then,
maybe
> some made in Japan, then, OK maybe some from Taiwan. It is a slippery
> slope, and there is NO chairlift back to the top of the mountain.
> For me in California, I cannot compete with a $249 wholesale Surly Touring
> frame. I know the argument - we are better in the USA doing the designing
> and outsourcing the production. B.S. - People in India, Taiwan and China
> have the same computers we have. In fact, my Hewlett Packard computer as
> made in China. They also have people who can use them. The only jobs
that
> can not be outsourced are the jobs pouring your coffee at Starbucks, and
the
> job wearing an "Orange Apron" and saying - "Welcome to Home Depot".
> That gets me back to the question of why I wrote the original post. If we
> want to have the passionate, small, innovative builders - we have to start
> buying from them. We need to buy from the people who are passionate about
> building them, NOT just from the passionate people who Market them. I
doubt
> that the factory workers in Taiwan, or China, etc. are passionate about
> bikes like you are.
>
> If you got this far - thanks for reading and letting me get this off my
> chest.
> Regards,
> Bruce Gordon
> Bruce Gordon Cycles
> http://www.bgcycles.com
>
>
>
>
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