Re: [CR]Help dating a BSA track frameset (now Ellis Champion)

(Example: Framebuilders:Rene Herse)

Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 17:04:49 -0700
From: "Tam Pham" <terminaut@gmail.com>
To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
Subject: Re: [CR]Help dating a BSA track frameset (now Ellis Champion)
In-Reply-To: <C0D35041.5C4B8%hilary.stone@blueyonder.co.uk>
References: <b27bc5c00607061517j1785bc99g7f862c1a5c1a4462@mail.gmail.com>


Thanks Hilary. That takes me back to square zero but is useful information nevertheless. I think perhaps I will strip the paint/primer off with aircraft paint remover over the weekend and have a closer examination for other clues.

Tam Pham Huntington Beach, CA

On 7/6/06, Hilary Stone <hilary.stone@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
> An Ellis Champion will normally have a frame number on the seat lug - but
> number 2101 would date it as being in the 1910-20 period which it
> certainly
> isn't - Ellis Champion were founded in 1897. And over the years I have
> had
> several Ellis Champions but this frame does not strike me as one - they
> have
> a style which is distinctive but not easily describeable. Other English
> makers to use numbers on the seat lug are F W Evans but the number is also
> too low for the date of this frame and Macleans - I do not know much about
> Macleans numbers pre-WWII but it does not have any characteristics of
> these
> frames either which were generally quite distinctive too...
> Bates used head lugs in this style but the number is not the correct type
> or
> in the correct place... This frame may date from just post-WWII as the
> seatstay top eyes and the chainstay indentations lokk a little more modern
> than the fork crown would otherwise suggest.
>
>
> Hilary Stone, Bristol, England
>
>
> > From: "Tam Pham" <terminaut@gmail.com>
> > Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 15:17:30 -0700
> > To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> > Cc: NIGEL LAND <ndland@btinternet.com>
> > Subject: Re: [CR]Help dating a BSA track frameset (now Ellis Champion)
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > A very helpful non-listmember has identified the frameset as a 1930's
> Ellis
> > Champion. I havent' heard of the brand before. Does anyone have links to
> > photos of an Ellis Champion on the web by any chance?
> >
> > Tam Pham
> > Huntington Beach, CA
> >
> >
> > On 7/6/06, NIGEL LAND <ndland@btinternet.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Tam, that is a seriously nice frame. Can't see from the pics but I
> guess
> >> neither fork crown nor rear bridge are drilled? Also no mudguard eyes
> so
> >> pure track rather than road/path. The clip type headset was still in
> use
> >> into the early 50s, but is a good indicator of prewar. I have a 1936
> BSA
> >> catalogue and lugs are sort of similar to the Golden Vase road bike.
> There
> >> is no track frame listed and the two part head lugs are different to
> >> anything else in the catalogue. I am no expert on BSA, nor on prewar
> track
> >> irons and hope someone out there is. However, BSA made a lot of
> fittings
> >> and
> >> their bottom brackets were sold by Brown Bros for use by frame
> builders.
> >> So
> >> there is a good chance it is not a BSA and that opens a huge can of
> >> worms..Norris???
> >> Good find,
> >>
> >> Nigel Land
> >> Barton on Humber
> >> UK
> >>
> >>
> >> Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 14:23:24 -0700
> >> From: "Tam Pham" <terminaut@gmail.com>
> >> To: "classicrendezvous@bikelist.org" <Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> >> Subject: [CR]Help dating a BSA track frameset
> >> Message-ID: <
> b27bc5c00607051423v63d8066bx116dbdc5ecf3041c@mail.gmail.com>
> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> >> MIME-Version: 1.0
> >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> >> Precedence: list
> >> Message: 8
> >>
> >> Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 14:23:24 -0700
> >> From: "Tam Pham" <terminaut@gmail.com>
> >> To: "classicrendezvous@bikelist.org" <Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> >> Subject: [CR]Help dating a BSA track frameset
> >> Message-ID: <
> b27bc5c00607051423v63d8066bx116dbdc5ecf3041c@mail.gmail.com>
> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> >> MIME-Version: 1.0
> >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> >> Precedence: list
> >> Message: 8
> >>
> >> I seem to have a thing for certain British brands. With cars it was
> >> Triumph
> >> and now with bikes it's BSA. Anyways, I recently picked up another old
> BSA
> >> frameset that seems to be very well constructed (particularly with
> regards
> >> to the thinned lugs) and could use some help in dating it.
> Unfortunately,
> >> a
> >> prior owner refinished the frameset with a poor rattle-can paintjob and
> >> the
> >> original markings are no longer known.
> >>
> >> The serial number stamped on the seat tube looks like it's 2101, and
> some
> >> photos can be seen here:
> >>
> >> http://www.chainedrevolution.com/images/bikes/bsa/details.htm
> >>
> >> Thanks in advance for any comments offered,
> >> Tam Pham
> >> Huntington Beach, CA