Nigel
As you say you are now withdrawing from this discussion, it's time for me to say that I'm entirely with you and your thoughts on the matter.
I have never bought any old bikes or bits to sell onwards, but have sold many items on Ebay and elsewhere as my preferences have moved from pre-1960 to post 1960 bikes. I am fortunate in not needing to make money from my hobby, and have had many good transactions and much help from people on this list. They know who they are.( I'm not a member of the V-CC, as I don't like the way it has been changed over the years.)
On one occasion, I sold a Campag item on Ebay which I had known from new. A well known Japanese collector paid about 5 times what I thought it was worth. Rather than pocket the extra cash, based on the 'market value/capitalist' argument, I included in the package a much rarer Campag piece of which I had then only seen the one. The Japanese are always very courteous, as we all know here, but I received unbelievable thanks from my buyer and I'm still not certain whether he thought it might have all been a mistake on my part! On another occasion I supplied various of the parts free and about a weeks labour, to rebuild correctly a 1955 Gillott track iron. The recipient of my efforts rode the bike a few times, then sold it on Ebay for a substantial price, with the misdescription that it had all its original parts! Never again, lesson learned, 'friend' lost!
In the case of your Elswick Hopper item, it would have been very easy for Hilary, after selling the catalogue to you, to simply walk back to his supplier and 'split the difference', wouldn't it?
I always remember a lesson from my father, who was a lifelong cyclist and hoarder of old parts:- "You can only pull a fast one with each person once, so better never to start".
I will also now pull out of this thread, as I think it's showing the difference between the traders and the collectors.
Mike Waite
Amersham Bucks UK
mrwaite@btinternet.com
etc)
> Charlie, you hit the button on this one. I don't want to drag this
> discussion out but feel I have to defend what I have said. This damn
> catalogue was not a 'cool catalogue' with wide appeal. It was an obscure
> one
> for an Elswick-Hopper model - not a marque that attracts much interest but
> one that I have been researching for many years as the company was based
> in
> my home town. It has cost me a lot of money to do a lot of research and I
> am
> doing it for the love of it. The book will assuredly lose money when it
> finally gets published. My catalogue collection will finish up in the
> local
> museum or the V-CC library, when I finally get around to writing a will.
> The
> nub is that the only way that Hilary knew of my interest was through
> being,
> like me, a V-CC Club member. Call me old fashioned but walking a catalogue
> across a room is something I would have done for a fellow club member with
> a
> known interest, just to see his face light up. Make money out of it? If
> you
> think that is OK then we are from different worlds, and I know which one I
> prefer. And please don't call people misguided when you don't have a clue
> who they are.
>
> Nigel Land
> Barton on Humber
> UK
> PS I would like to thank all those who have sent emails with positive
> support, all offline, unfortunately, and I now withdraw from this
> particular
> discussion. Got to get a bike ready for a Sunday old bike meet and I have
> a
> road race to help marshal tomorrow afternoon. Must also resolve to spend
> less time at the keyboard.
>
> Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 22:28:38 -0400 (EDT)
> From: chasds@mindspring.com
> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> Subject: [CR]ethics of buying and selling (was re: ASC sturmey Archer
> etc)
> Message-ID:
> <24718635.1152239318230.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Precedence: list
> Reply-To: chasds@mindspring.com
> Message: 1
>
> Nigel Land wrote, in part:
>
> "when he discovered a rare Elswick-Hopper catalogue a couple or so years a
> go
>> on a stall run by a fellow V-CC member. He bought it and brought ot over
> to
>> me immediately and sold it at a good profit. I discovered its origin a sh
> ort
>> while later, when I showed it to the erstwhile owner. We both agreed that
> it
>> 'wasn't exactly cricket, old chap.' OK, fair deal for a dealer, but I am
>> buying catalogues for a reseach project and for eventual gift to the V-CC
>> library, as I am the marque enthusiast for that (much neglected) company.
> At
>> the time I resented being ripped off by someone who professes to be an
>> expert and source of knowledge, and who, at the time, was a committee mem
> ber
>
> ********
>
> I realize Hilary can and will speak for himself far better than I can, but
> I
> just could not let this particular comment stand unaddressed.
>
> I think there's a basic misunderstanding at work here. I simply fail to
> understand how it is that Nigel was "ripped off" by Hilary. Where's the
> problem? Hilary found a cool catalog, that he *knew* was cool from long
> experience. He paid a fair price for it, and he sold it to Nigel for a
> price Nigel apparently thought was fair.
>
> I can see Nigel tasting some sour grapes over it, but that's not Hilary's
> problem. That's Nigel's problem, imho.
>
> Hilary made a point of *finding* the catalog, and knowing who might want
> it.
> Both those things are worth money.
>
> I have friends who are *ace* swap-meet pickers. They seem to have a nose
> for it, and the patience and fortitude to wade through a seemingly endless
> sea of junk to find the good stuff. I am more than happy to pay them
> extra
> for this fortitude, which I myself lack almost entirely.
>
> So, I differ completely with Nigel. Hilary does us *all* a great service
> by
> single-mindedly finding all this cool stuff for us to have a crack at. He
> deserves every franc he can earn thereby.
>
> Let's note that this is a professional activity for Hilary, and I am WELL
> aware of the annoyance I feel when someone asks for my professional
> capacities at no compensation, or well under their value. I might give
> them, but purely as a favor. Otherwise, I expect to be paid for my
> professional competence, and I expect to pay others for the same.
>
> I've also done numerous deals with Hilary, always at a fair price, and
> always with the utmost professionalism. An experience many of us have
> had,
> I'm sure.
>
> So, Nigel, I guess what I'm saying...just one man's opinion here...you're
> entitled to your feelings, and your opinion, but I think both are
> misguided.
>
> Charles "lazy" Andrews
> SoCal