I have never pulled a 'fast' one with anyone I have traded with - I am always open and honest with both buyers and sellers but I hink it is easily forgotten that if it was not for people over the years making money in the cycle industry we would not have the parts and bikes we do. Sandy Holdsworth, Maurice Selbach, F W Evans and Claud Butler all made a considerable amount of money. Without them we would not have the bikes we do now. I do not hear any criticism of them. Similarily I make money from old bikes - not a lot - as anybody who knows me well will can testify. I have a car that is nearly 20 years old, my house has not been repainted in 14 years etc - there are no fortunes to be made trading old bike parts. But what I do is to make available to the world bikes and their parts which they could not possibly buy otherwise as well as riders and collectors in this country who cannot travel extensively to find the parts they require. If dealers did not exist the bikes and parts would remain in the hands of an elite few - those who are in the know, who live in the correct places and who have the time or money to search out what they want. It must also not be forgotten that most of the dealers are very knowledgeable and speaking for myself frequently need to research an item I am selling. The buyer definitely benefits from this. How many collectors knew of the existence of a Sturmey Archer 4-speed top tube control until I sold one recently on Ebay? A minor item but there are many more intances of good coming from the worlwide trade in older bike parts. The enormous amounts of research done by some Japanese collectors into their specialties is a case in point with the knowledge being shared to everyone's good. Some prices go up, some go up and come down again, I would never recommend to anyone at old bikes are a good investment, the market is far too fickle and small for that. Bicycles and their collecting is about fun, for some riding, for others the satisfaction of establishing the history and for others just the sheer charm of essentially fairly simple technology.
Hilary Stone, Bristol, England
> From: "MICHAEL WAITE" <mrwaite@btopenworld.com>
> Reply-To: MICHAEL WAITE <mrwaite@btinternet.com>
> Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 17:36:28 +0100
> To: "NIGEL LAND" <ndland@btinternet.com>, <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> Subject: Re: [CR]CR]ethics of buying and selling (was re: ASC sturmey Archer
> etc)
>
> Nigel
>
> As you say you are now withdrawing from this discussion, it's time for me to
> say that I'm entirely with you and your thoughts on the matter.
>
> I have never bought any old bikes or bits to sell onwards, but have sold
> many items on Ebay and elsewhere as my preferences have moved from pre-1960
> to post 1960 bikes. I am fortunate in not needing to make money from my
> hobby, and have had many good transactions and much help from people on this
> list. They know who they are.( I'm not a member of the V-CC, as I don't like
> the way it has been changed over the years.)
>
> On one occasion, I sold a Campag item on Ebay which I had known from new. A
> well known Japanese collector paid about 5 times what I thought it was
> worth. Rather than pocket the extra cash, based on the 'market
> value/capitalist' argument, I included in the package a much rarer Campag
> piece of which I had then only seen the one. The Japanese are always very
> courteous, as we all know here, but I received unbelievable thanks from my
> buyer and I'm still not certain whether he thought it might have all been a
> mistake on my part!
> On another occasion I supplied various of the parts free and about a weeks
> labour, to rebuild correctly a 1955 Gillott track iron. The recipient of my
> efforts rode the bike a few times, then sold it on Ebay for a substantial
> price, with the misdescription that it had all its original parts!
> Never again, lesson learned, 'friend' lost!
>
> In the case of your Elswick Hopper item, it would have been very easy for
> Hilary, after selling the catalogue to you, to simply walk back to his
> supplier and 'split the difference', wouldn't it?
>
> I always remember a lesson from my father, who was a lifelong cyclist and
> hoarder of old parts:-
> "You can only pull a fast one with each person once, so better never to
> start".
>
> I will also now pull out of this thread, as I think it's showing the
> difference between the traders and the collectors.
>
> Mike Waite
> Amersham Bucks UK
> mrwaite@btinternet.com
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "NIGEL LAND" <ndland@btinternet.com>
> To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 11:20 AM
> Subject: [CR]CR]ethics of buying and selling (was re: ASC sturmey Archer
> etc)
>
>
>> Charlie, you hit the button on this one. I don't want to drag this
>> discussion out but feel I have to defend what I have said. This damn
>> catalogue was not a 'cool catalogue' with wide appeal. It was an obscure
>> one
>> for an Elswick-Hopper model - not a marque that attracts much interest but
>> one that I have been researching for many years as the company was based
>> in
>> my home town. It has cost me a lot of money to do a lot of research and I
>> am
>> doing it for the love of it. The book will assuredly lose money when it
>> finally gets published. My catalogue collection will finish up in the
>> local
>> museum or the V-CC library, when I finally get around to writing a will.
>> The
>> nub is that the only way that Hilary knew of my interest was through
>> being,
>> like me, a V-CC Club member. Call me old fashioned but walking a catalogue
>> across a room is something I would have done for a fellow club member with
>> a
>> known interest, just to see his face light up. Make money out of it? If
>> you
>> think that is OK then we are from different worlds, and I know which one I
>> prefer. And please don't call people misguided when you don't have a clue
>> who they are.
>>
>> Nigel Land
>> Barton on Humber
>> UK
>> PS I would like to thank all those who have sent emails with positive
>> support, all offline, unfortunately, and I now withdraw from this
>> particular
>> discussion. Got to get a bike ready for a Sunday old bike meet and I have
>> a
>> road race to help marshal tomorrow afternoon. Must also resolve to spend
>> less time at the keyboard.
>>
>> Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 22:28:38 -0400 (EDT)
>> From: chasds@mindspring.com
>> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
>> Subject: [CR]ethics of buying and selling (was re: ASC sturmey Archer
>> etc)
>> Message-ID:
>> <24718635.1152239318230.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>> MIME-Version: 1.0
>> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>> Precedence: list
>> Reply-To: chasds@mindspring.com
>> Message: 1
>>
>> Nigel Land wrote, in part:
>>
>> "when he discovered a rare Elswick-Hopper catalogue a couple or so years a
>> go
>>> on a stall run by a fellow V-CC member. He bought it and brought ot over
>> to
>>> me immediately and sold it at a good profit. I discovered its origin a sh
>> ort
>>> while later, when I showed it to the erstwhile owner. We both agreed that
>> it
>>> 'wasn't exactly cricket, old chap.' OK, fair deal for a dealer, but I am
>>> buying catalogues for a reseach project and for eventual gift to the V-CC
>>> library, as I am the marque enthusiast for that (much neglected) company.
>> At
>>> the time I resented being ripped off by someone who professes to be an
>>> expert and source of knowledge, and who, at the time, was a committee mem
>> ber
>>
>> ********
>>
>> I realize Hilary can and will speak for himself far better than I can, but
>> I
>> just could not let this particular comment stand unaddressed.
>>
>> I think there's a basic misunderstanding at work here. I simply fail to
>> understand how it is that Nigel was "ripped off" by Hilary. Where's the
>> problem? Hilary found a cool catalog, that he *knew* was cool from long
>> experience. He paid a fair price for it, and he sold it to Nigel for a
>> price Nigel apparently thought was fair.
>>
>> I can see Nigel tasting some sour grapes over it, but that's not Hilary's
>> problem. That's Nigel's problem, imho.
>>
>> Hilary made a point of *finding* the catalog, and knowing who might want
>> it.
>> Both those things are worth money.
>>
>> I have friends who are *ace* swap-meet pickers. They seem to have a nose
>> for it, and the patience and fortitude to wade through a seemingly endless
>> sea of junk to find the good stuff. I am more than happy to pay them
>> extra
>> for this fortitude, which I myself lack almost entirely.
>>
>> So, I differ completely with Nigel. Hilary does us *all* a great service
>> by
>> single-mindedly finding all this cool stuff for us to have a crack at. He
>> deserves every franc he can earn thereby.
>>
>> Let's note that this is a professional activity for Hilary, and I am WELL
>> aware of the annoyance I feel when someone asks for my professional
>> capacities at no compensation, or well under their value. I might give
>> them, but purely as a favor. Otherwise, I expect to be paid for my
>> professional competence, and I expect to pay others for the same.
>>
>> I've also done numerous deals with Hilary, always at a fair price, and
>> always with the utmost professionalism. An experience many of us have
>> had,
>> I'm sure.
>>
>> So, Nigel, I guess what I'm saying...just one man's opinion here...you're
>> entitled to your feelings, and your opinion, but I think both are
>> misguided.
>>
>> Charles "lazy" Andrews
>> SoCal