Re: [CR]Is there a book about how to file ornate lugs?

(Example: Racing:Jacques Boyer)

From: <"brianbaylis@juno.com">
Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 13:55:27 GMT
To: stevens@veloworks.com
Subject: Re: [CR]Is there a book about how to file ornate lugs?
cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org

Steven,

Nice of you to spend the time putting in your 2 cents worth. Some of

your conclusions need some work. Think what you want. If any of you

guys took the time to find out what I'm all about I'm sure you would

find you have a very innacurate picture of who I am.

I've tried to get to know the other guys better; even making the

supreme effort to join the table of the biggies from the East for

dinner while at the framebuilders show one evening. After announcing

outright that I was abandoning the table of guys who sit together all

the time, to come join in with the "other side" for a change, I was

met with stone cold silence. In case no one has noticed, when we're

all together at these shows, each group has a tendency to stay

seperated. Exactly what is the point in that? I sat down at the end

of the table and tried to get into the conversation to see if I could

warm things up. The only person who would talk to the "table guest"

was Doug Fattic, who also just happened to show up right behind me

and sat down. I came to share some humor and try to get to know these

guys a little better and maybe break the tension a bit. They were

having none of it. No sense of humor amongst those guys and a too

serious about everything attitude that is stiffeling.

So you tell me who is insecure. Please.

There is a lot under the surface here. I am the only one doing what I

do. Apparently that isn't popular amongst some other framebuilders.

Much of what I write seems to be misinterperted by pretty much

everyone. Oh well, think what you want.

Brian Baylis La Mesa, CA Yes, there are a few differences in personality and opinions amongst

framebuilders.


-- "Steven L. Sheffield" wrote:


On 07/31/2006 11:01 PM, "brianbaylis@juno.com" <brianbaylis@juno.com>

wrote :


> Nice little dogpile you guys formed up. Are you guys nervous about
> something? Since the fan clubs are forming up against the evil one,
> maybe you all could clue in the rest of us as to what is making you
> guys jump to conclusions.

Some thoughts from along the Wasatch Front, in Salt Lake City ...

While you don't name the "long time builder" in your original email,

you've sniped enough in the past that it's obvious about whom you are

speaking.


> Shall we discuss the politics of what has been going on for some

time
> now? It's beginning to be pretty obvious that it's everyone else
> against me. That means I'm the one that is different from all of

the
> rest of the guys in "the club".

As is often the case, you're the one who is different from all of

the "rest of the guys" because you cast yourself in that role.

There's nothing wrong with that.

I don't think there is anyone here who denigrates your work, what you

do an d the method that you've taken to heart, still building frames the old

way, using pressed lugs, hand-filing, etc. In fact, I'm sure that most

people admire what you do, and I don't think I've ever read a single bad

word abou t your way of doing things.

You call it traditional (I believe the phrase you once used is "True

Blue Traditional Framebuilding"), others may call it old-fashioned. The

label doesn't matter.

What matters is that it's your style, and it's a great style ... but

it's not the ONLY style.

You have a tendency to cast aspersions on a variety of things;

investment cast lugs, any material other than steel, marketing ... in fact,

against almost anything that can be considered to be an innovation, necessary

or not, or different than the way you do it.

This is what people have a problem with.


> I'm down with that. Maybe we should
> all discuss this openly instead of you guys jumping all over me
> without you even knowing what's going on; not with me as a
> framebuilder and most especially you don't know me as a person. I've
> tried to get friendly with everyone, but no one is open. Who resents
> what?

To be honest, I think you resent other people's success, especially

that of those who have been around for relatively only a few years, but you

tend to focus on one person. While seldom naming him, it is obvious of whom

you speak.

I've always thought that perhaps it was a bit of envy, because you

don't ge t as much press as some of the others, whom you seldom name.

But I'm beginning to think that it's insecurity ... I think you're

afraid o f something, and I wonder what it is ...


> Sorry everyone is possibly going to have to sit through (or not) a
> bit of a tiff. Not all framebuilders agree with one another nor have
> the same personal philosophy. There is confilct. My point of view,
> like my work, is unique.

Other framebuilders don't snipe at those whose personal philosophy, point-of-view, or framebuilding style are different from their own,

however .

Some even celebrate differences. To use a cliché, variety is the

spice of life.

It is okay to have a difference of opinion. It is okay to express

your own opinion. It is not okay to constantly needle those whose opinions

and/or style don't match your own.


> In a message dated 7/29/2006 1:18:38 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>
> brianbaylis@juno.com writes:
>
> Recently there was some talk on one of the "lists" regarding what

it
> takes to learn to build frames. One long time builder remarked that
> it takes building lots of frames to become an "expert" and get to
> where you really know what you're doing; and if you don't build
> enough you won't be that good at it.

Brian ... you may not build a lot of frames these days, and no one

will say that you're not an expert ... but even you cut your teeth in a

production environment at Masi.

It does take building lots of frames to become an expert. You cannot

becom e an expert without practice, but that's not the ONLY requirement.

I don't think anyone has ever said that ALL you need to do is build

lots of frames.

You don't become an expert after building one or two frames; and some

peopl e don't become experts, even after building 1000 frames. No matter how

many frames they build, some people will only ever be journeymen builders,

not masters.

It also takes talent, an ability to read the metal, a steady hand, a

feel for the torch, and so on, and so on, and so on ...

Unless you have ALL of it, then something will be missing.

So who has the full package? (that's a rhetorical question, by the

way)


> That is pure foolishness and
> comes from someone who is obviously trying to keep the process a
> mystery. Any idiot knows that framebuilding is pretty simple in the
> basic form and most anyone with reasonable motor skills, some
> patience, and a good dose of common sense, and a little practice,

can
> build excellent bike frames.

Framebuilding is relatively simple. It's basic metalwork and

plumbing. Bu t what makes an excellent bicycle frame?

It's not just beautiful lugwork; it's also the handling, the fit, the

ride. And different people are going to rank those aspects in different

ways.

I've long said that I'd rather ride a bike that looks like a pig, but handles perfectly, than one which has a perfect aesthetic finish, but handles poorly.

But the best bikes have it all ...

My aesthetic sensibility tells me that simplicity is better. I prefer simple short- and medium-point lugs, with or without windows, but with crisp, sharp edges. Even with IC lugs, that doesn't come easy.

I am not as enamoured of decorative lugwork as I once was; while it's

not t o my taste for my personal bikes, however, it's still very enjoyable to

see a finished, well-designed decorative lug.


> The notion that framebuilding is magic
> or difficult is pure hogwash. Anyone in the framebuilding business
> who trys to make people think it's something special should be
> ashamed of themselves. Period.

So there is nothing special about "True Blue Traditional

Framebuilding"?

--

Steven L. Sheffield stevens at veloworks dot com bellum pax est libertas servitus est ignoratio vis est ess ay ell tea ell ay kay ee sea eye tee why you ti ay aitch aitch tee tea pea colon [for word] slash [four ward] slash double-you double-yew double-ewe dot flahute dot com [foreword] slash