First time writer and long time biker/owner........In reading the response to Curt Goodrich and Johne Greene I feel that Dave hit it right on the head of the nail.....I also enjoy the thought of building my own frame and have alsways looked forward to the snippets from Brian B. My current collection now numbers 14 bikes that started when I worked at Riverside Cycle Sport u nder the watchfull eye of Jerry Collier. I was educated in the school of Ta ylor, Herse, Singer, and Hetchins.........Ron Smith, later of Masi Ca. work ed along side of me and to have someone of Brian's talent share his experti se with us is a blessing.
We should be excited that he is willing to take the time to educate us in t he areas of frame building.
Craig Celse
Riverside, Ca.
-----Original Message-----
>From: classicrendezvous-request@bikelist.org
>Sent: Aug 1, 2006 9:19 AM
>To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
>Subject: Classicrendezvous Digest, Vol 44, Issue 2
>
>Send Classicrendezvous mailing list submissions to
>=09classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
>
>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>=09http://www.bikelist.org/mailman/listinfo/classicrendezvous
>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>=09classicrendezvous-request@bikelist.org
>
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>
>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>than "Re: Contents of Classicrendezvous digest..."
>
>
>CR
>
>Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Curt Goodrich & John Greene: Where is the love, guys?
> (David Patrick)
> 2. Re: Is there a book about how to file ornate lugs?
> (brianbaylis@juno.com)
> 3. Dear Quarrelling Framebuilders... (Don Wilson)
> 4. RE: New Member---le Chemineau (Jan Heine)
> 5. Help ID'ing Campy Levers (John Price)
> 6. Re: Abilities of amateur vs expert framebuilders
> 7. Re: Dear Quarrelling Framebuilders... (brianbaylis@juno.com)
> 8. Re: Curt Goodrich & John Greene: Where is the love, guys?
> (brianbaylis@juno.com)
> 9. Shipping tandem frame set to Hawaii (Norma Gonzalez)
> 10. Framebuilders of the future??? (Nick Zatezalo)
> 11. Re: Framebuilders of the future??? (Brandon Ives)
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 05:57:20 -0700 (PDT)
>From: David Patrick <patrick-ajdb@sbcglobal.net>
>To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
>Subject: [CR]Curt Goodrich & John Greene: Where is the love, guys?
>Message-ID: <20060801125720.84279.qmail@web82306.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>Precedence: list
>Message: 1
>
>Curt,
>
> Your reply to Brian's post really strikes me as being off-base and missi
ng the point, and I can only hope that your comments were the result of rec
ord-high temps in Minneapolis these past few days.
>
> Brian said in his post: ".... framebuilding is pretty simple in the basi
c form and most anyone with reasonable motor skills, some patience, and a g
ood dose of common sense, and a little practice, can build excellent bike f
rames". I think the key here are the words "...in the basic form....". To
me, Brian was just trying to encourage CR members to perhaps pick up a set
of torches and give framebuilding a try, and that they should not be intim
idated by the framebuilding process. In all seriousness, Curt, don't Brian
's comments pretty much sum up your past ten years of framebuilding? You go
t an itch to build frames, moved to Seattle, kicked around from mentor to m
entor (or shop to shop), picking up skills here & there, then you fell into
the Rivendell gig after having about 5-6 years of experience under your be
lt.
>
> I've built two framesets to date and I was happy with the results. Do I
still have a lot to learn? Sure, but my initial efforts were not garbage.
I don't know if any of NASA's old space chimps could build a frame, but I
'm quite sure that the majority of CR members are capable of picking up a s
et of torches and turning out a very serviceable first frameset (note to CR
members: I'm not comparing you to space chimps!!!). Hats off to Brian for
giving the CR membership encouragement to do so, which is something I have
n't seen from any other established framebuilders on the CR list.
>
> Now it seems you & John Greene are involved in some sort of pissing cont
est with Brian over this "mystery framebuilder". Guys: I don't think the C
R membership is privy to the ins and outs of the high-pressure, highly-char
ged, politicized world of framebuilders, so this is all over our heads. We
have no idea who you guys are referring to, which to me is further proof t
hat Brian's comments were not intended as malicious. Perhaps the two of yo
u can mount your own militias and do your attacking somewhere else? Bottom
line: Brian Baylis has been extremely generous on this list with his knowl
edge and encouragement, something I haven't seen from other "framebuilders"
, and his post to the CR list was meant to "de-mystify" the framebuilding
process and as a bit of encouragement to CR members who have given thought
to taking a stab at framebuilding.
>
>
> Dave Patrick
> Chelsea, Michigan
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 13:55:27 GMT
>From: "brianbaylis@juno.com" <brianbaylis@juno.com>
>To: stevens@veloworks.com
>Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
>Subject: Re: [CR]Is there a book about how to file ornate lugs?
>Message-ID: <20060801.065559.24743.570573@webmail24.lax.untd.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Precedence: list
>Message: 2
>
>Steven,
>
>Nice of you to spend the time putting in your 2 cents worth. Some of
>
>your conclusions need some work. Think what you want. If any of you
>
>guys took the time to find out what I'm all about I'm sure you would
>
>find you have a very innacurate picture of who I am.
>
>I've tried to get to know the other guys better; even making the
>
>supreme effort to join the table of the biggies from the East for
>
>dinner while at the framebuilders show one evening. After announcing
>
>outright that I was abandoning the table of guys who sit together all
>
>the time, to come join in with the "other side" for a change, I was
>
>met with stone cold silence. In case no one has noticed, when we're
>
>all together at these shows, each group has a tendency to stay
>
>seperated. Exactly what is the point in that? I sat down at the end
>
>of the table and tried to get into the conversation to see if I could
>
>warm things up. The only person who would talk to the "table guest"
>
>was Doug Fattic, who also just happened to show up right behind me
>
>and sat down. I came to share some humor and try to get to know these
>
>guys a little better and maybe break the tension a bit. They were
>
>having none of it. No sense of humor amongst those guys and a too
>
>serious about everything attitude that is stiffeling.
>
>So you tell me who is insecure. Please.
>
>There is a lot under the surface here. I am the only one doing what I
>
>do. Apparently that isn't popular amongst some other framebuilders.
>
>Much of what I write seems to be misinterperted by pretty much
>
>everyone. Oh well, think what you want.
>
>Brian Baylis
>La Mesa, CA
>Yes, there are a few differences in personality and opinions amongst
>
>framebuilders.
>
>-- "Steven L. Sheffield" <stevens@veloworks.com> wrote:
>On 07/31/2006 11:01 PM, "brianbaylis@juno.com" <brianbaylis@juno.com>
>
>wrote
>:
>
>
>> Nice little dogpile you guys formed up. Are you guys nervous about
>> something? Since the fan clubs are forming up against the evil one,
>> maybe you all could clue in the rest of us as to what is making you
>> guys jump to conclusions.
>
>
>Some thoughts from along the Wasatch Front, in Salt Lake City ...
>
>While you don't name the "long time builder" in your original email,
>
>you've
>sniped enough in the past that it's obvious about whom you are
>
>speaking.
>
>
>
>> Shall we discuss the politics of what has been going on for some
>
>time
>> now? It's beginning to be pretty obvious that it's everyone else
>> against me. That means I'm the one that is different from all of
>
>the
>> rest of the guys in "the club".
>
>
>As is often the case, you're the one who is different from all of
>
>the "rest
>of the guys" because you cast yourself in that role.
>
>There's nothing wrong with that.
>
>I don't think there is anyone here who denigrates your work, what you
>
>do an
>d
>the method that you've taken to heart, still building frames the old
>
>way,
>using pressed lugs, hand-filing, etc. In fact, I'm sure that most
>
>people
>admire what you do, and I don't think I've ever read a single bad
>
>word abou
>t
>your way of doing things.
>
>You call it traditional (I believe the phrase you once used is "True
>
>Blue
>Traditional Framebuilding"), others may call it old-fashioned. The
>
>label
>doesn't matter.
>
>What matters is that it's your style, and it's a great style ... but
>
>it's
>not the ONLY style.
>
>You have a tendency to cast aspersions on a variety of things;
>
>investment
>cast lugs, any material other than steel, marketing ... in fact,
>
>against
>almost anything that can be considered to be an innovation, necessary
>
>or
>not, or different than the way you do it.
>
>This is what people have a problem with.
>
>
>> I'm down with that. Maybe we should
>> all discuss this openly instead of you guys jumping all over me
>> without you even knowing what's going on; not with me as a
>> framebuilder and most especially you don't know me as a person. I've
>> tried to get friendly with everyone, but no one is open. Who resents
>> what?
>
>
>To be honest, I think you resent other people's success, especially
>
>that of
>those who have been around for relatively only a few years, but you
>
>tend to
>focus on one person. While seldom naming him, it is obvious of whom
>
>you
>speak.
>
>I've always thought that perhaps it was a bit of envy, because you
>
>don't ge
>t
>as much press as some of the others, whom you seldom name.
>
>But I'm beginning to think that it's insecurity ... I think you're
>
>afraid o
>f
>something, and I wonder what it is ...
>
>
>> Sorry everyone is possibly going to have to sit through (or not) a
>> bit of a tiff. Not all framebuilders agree with one another nor have
>> the same personal philosophy. There is confilct. My point of view,
>> like my work, is unique.
>
>
>Other framebuilders don't snipe at those whose personal philosophy,
>point-of-view, or framebuilding style are different from their own,
>
>however
>.
>
>Some even celebrate differences. To use a cliché, variety is the
>
>spice of
>life.
>
>It is okay to have a difference of opinion. It is okay to express
>
>your own
>opinion. It is not okay to constantly needle those whose opinions
>
>and/or
>style don't match your own.
>
>
>
>> In a message dated 7/29/2006 1:18:38 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>>
>
>> brianbaylis@juno.com writes:
>>
>
>> Recently there was some talk on one of the "lists" regarding what
>
>it
>> takes to learn to build frames. One long time builder remarked that
>> it takes building lots of frames to become an "expert" and get to
>> where you really know what you're doing; and if you don't build
>> enough you won't be that good at it.
>
>
>Brian ... you may not build a lot of frames these days, and no one
>
>will say
>that you're not an expert ... but even you cut your teeth in a
>
>production
>environment at Masi.
>
>It does take building lots of frames to become an expert. You cannot
>
>becom
>e
>an expert without practice, but that's not the ONLY requirement.
>
>I don't think anyone has ever said that ALL you need to do is build
>
>lots of
>frames.
>
>You don't become an expert after building one or two frames; and some
>
>peopl
>e
>don't become experts, even after building 1000 frames. No matter how
>
>many
>frames they build, some people will only ever be journeymen builders,
>
>not
>masters.
>
>It also takes talent, an ability to read the metal, a steady hand, a
>
>feel
>for the torch, and so on, and so on, and so on ...
>
>Unless you have ALL of it, then something will be missing.
>
>So who has the full package? (that's a rhetorical question, by the
>
>way)
>
>
>> That is pure foolishness and
>> comes from someone who is obviously trying to keep the process a
>> mystery. Any idiot knows that framebuilding is pretty simple in the
>> basic form and most anyone with reasonable motor skills, some
>> patience, and a good dose of common sense, and a little practice,
>
>can
>> build excellent bike frames.
>
>
>Framebuilding is relatively simple. It's basic metalwork and
>
>plumbing. Bu
>t
>what makes an excellent bicycle frame?
>
>It's not just beautiful lugwork; it's also the handling, the fit, the
>
>ride.
>And different people are going to rank those aspects in different
>
>ways.
>
>I've long said that I'd rather ride a bike that looks like a pig, but
>handles perfectly, than one which has a perfect aesthetic finish, but
>handles poorly.
>
>But the best bikes have it all ...
>
>My aesthetic sensibility tells me that simplicity is better. I prefer
>simple short- and medium-point lugs, with or without windows, but with
>crisp, sharp edges. Even with IC lugs, that doesn't come easy.
>
>I am not as enamoured of decorative lugwork as I once was; while it's
>
>not t
>o
>my taste for my personal bikes, however, it's still very enjoyable to
>
>see a
>finished, well-designed decorative lug.
>
>
>> The notion that framebuilding is magic
>> or difficult is pure hogwash. Anyone in the framebuilding business
>> who trys to make people think it's something special should be
>> ashamed of themselves. Period.
>
>
>So there is nothing special about "True Blue Traditional
>
>Framebuilding"?
>
>
>
>--
>
>Steven L. Sheffield
>stevens at veloworks dot com
>bellum pax est libertas servitus est ignoratio vis est
>ess ay ell tea ell ay kay ee sea eye tee why you ti ay aitch
>aitch tee tea pea colon [for word] slash [four ward] slash double-you
>double-yew double-ewe dot flahute dot com [foreword] slash
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 07:06:00 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Don Wilson <dcwilson3@yahoo.com>
>To: Classic Rendezvous <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
>Subject: [CR]Dear Quarrelling Framebuilders...
>Message-ID: <20060801140600.75475.qmail@web52512.mail.yahoo.com>
>In-Reply-To: <20060731.220128.11827.565587@webmail44.lax.untd.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>Precedence: list
>Message: 3
>
>I only know one way to stop this quarrel, which I
>accidentally tripped by asking if there were a book
>about how to file ornate lugs.
>
>Bozzi, Cinelli, Confente, Hetchins, Herse, Masi,
>Nagasawa, Philbrook, Quinn, Singer, Stump et al, they
>are watching you...some from heaven, some from
>earth...to decide which of you to admit to the legacy.
>
>
>Before you say one more thing, ask yourselves what the
>masters would think of a public pissing match over
>this topic?
>
>Don Wilson
>Los Olivos, CA USA
>
>
>
>
>
>D.C. Wilson dcwilson3@yahoo.com
>-----------------------------------------------------------
>Note: This message may contain confidential and/or privileged
>information. If you are not the addressee or authorized to
>receive this for the addressee, you must not use, copy, disclose or take a
ny action based on this message or any information herein. If you have rec
eived this message in error, please advise the sender immediately by reply
e-mail and delete this message. Thank you for your cooperation.
>-------------------------------------------------------------
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>http://mail.yahoo.com
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 07:08:47 -0700
>From: Jan Heine <heine94@earthlink.net>
>To: "chris ioakimedes" <chriseye@comcast.net>,
>=09"'Peter Jourdain'" <pjourdain@yahoo.com>,
>=09"'Festiva 90 LX'" <festiva90lx@yahoo.com>,
>=09<classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
>Subject: RE: [CR]New Member---le Chemineau
>Message-ID: <a05210663c0f50e04d1b0@[192.168.1.33]>
>In-Reply-To: <001701c6b503$c1ffbd50$6401a8c0@KALITERO>
>References: <001701c6b503$c1ffbd50$6401a8c0@KALITERO>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Precedence: list
>Message: 4
>
>David,
>
>Thank you for posting the photos of your Le Chemineau. It is a very
>interesting bike, and beautifully preserved. The rear derailleur
>indeed is the first commercially successful derailleur, which became
>available around 1910.
>
>The maker, Joanny Panel, entered the Tour de France several times as
>a touriste-routier before WW I to showcase his derailleur, but never
>finished. (Touriste-Routiers were exempt from the derailleur ban.) I
>am working on a story of his TdF participation for Vintage Bicycle
>Quarterly.
>
>How does it shift? Do you like the indexing? Some people have told me
>that it took some getting used to... The Le Chemineau derailleur was
>missing from the "How classic derailleurs work on the road" article
>in VBQ, simply because I've never ridden one...
>
>Le Chemineau made quite a few bikes - they were production bikes, not
>custom. But not many have survived. I have seen Le Chemineau bikes
>from the 1920s and 1930s - yours must be one of the last, unless it
>is an earlier bike that was modernized later. But I suspect it would
>have lost its rear derailleur, if that had been the case. The
>derailleur did not change at all during the production run, so you
>basically have a ca. 1910 derailleur on your bike. Other features,
>such as the shift lever on the top tube, also look more pre-war, but
>Le Chemineau never was one to follow the latest fads. The Maniplume
>cranks date from between 1947, when they were introduced, and about
>1950, but Le Chemineau could have bought old stocks and used them.
>
>I love the headbadge, modeled after a km stone on the French highways.
>
>Jan Heine
>Editor/Publisher
>Vintage Bicycle Quarterly
>c/o Il Vecchio Bicycles
>140 Lakeside Ave, Ste. C
>Seattle WA 98122
>www.vintagebicyclepress.com
>
>
>>--- Festiva 90 LX <festiva90lx@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I really enjoyed seeing the pictures of Le Cirque du
>>> Cyclisme. Was that held in North Carolina? I
>>> especially liked the Rene Herse touring bike and the
>>> other Randonneurs.
>>>
>>> I would like to share with you some pictures of my
>>> Chemineau. It is about 50 years old and still being
>>> used, in fact I rode it today. The Chemineaus were
>>> produced in St. Etienne in the French Alps, and the
>>> company may have been one of the first to market the
>>> derailleur shift system. The pictures are here:
>> > http://community.webshots.com/
>>> this bicycle used, when I was in high school, in
>>> 1955. I also have...[edit]
>>>
>>> David Lester
>>> Hartford, Ct., USA
>>
>>
>>__________________________________________________
>>Do You Yahoo!?
>>Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>>http://mail.yahoo.com
>>_______________________________________________
>
>
>--
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 08:14:18 -0600
>From: "John Price" <emailprice@comcast.net>
>To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
>Subject: [CR] Help ID'ing Campy Levers
>Message-ID: <001101c6b574$c7315290$0a00a8c0@D4BXWK81>
>Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1"
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Precedence: list
>Message: 5
>
>Think I caught everyone sleeping last nite...
>Can anyone help me ID these milled levers?
>http://ebay.com/<blah>
>2&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&rd=1
>Thanks,
>John Price
>Albuquerque, New Mexico
>USA
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 10:21:28 EDT
>From: Nipponcomet@wmconnect.com
>To: brianbaylis@juno.com, sleitgen@charter.net
>Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
>Cc: gwlone@yahoo.ca
>Subject: Re: [CR]Abilities of amateur vs expert framebuilders
>Message-ID: <bea.166b9bc.3200bd68@wmconnect.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>Precedence: list
>Message: 6
>
> hey all, a wise old (expert) mechanic i relied on to help me understand a
nd
>know my way around a shop told me once, noone lives long enough to be an
>expert, we're all amatuers...forget counting things you've done, every sit
uation is
>a little different...yeah, some guys do stuff "wrong", but i love that peo
ple
>do...in my shop i had a case dedicated to tools and encouraged customers t
o
>buy that spoke wrench or chain tool, or third hand....tell them how to do
>something and give it a go...go slow but give it a go, i am here to help i
f you
>mess up....Ron Kitching had a chapter in his fine book titled "give us the
>tools".....please gents...what a forum we have here...who among us would d
are melign
>another enthusiast...maybe rag on him a little bit... really....i've read
>nothing yet in these missives i'd consider slander....before Sutherland pu
t that
>3 ring binder together, we all had to ask someone...info was hard to come
by
>or have we all forgotten that....a mechanic helping me out w/ a stumey-arc
her 5
>speed problem told me after the reveal to tell noone....hmmmm, that's how
it
>was in top shops...we know, you don't....everyone is pretty articulate aro
und
>this site and obviously pretty good typists considering the banter, so
>continue to share...remember that we also all know a bunch, all taught a l
ittle
>differently, we've all had some big things we leaned all on our own....so
it would
>be good let some comments not get too personal....good lord, we're talkin'
>bikes here, that's all. charlie flaherty in baltimore maryland.... oh and
PS:
>i'm a johnny come lately to this but i had to jump in when i started to se
e the
>bloody "expert" towel thrown down.
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 14:21:49 GMT
>From: "brianbaylis@juno.com" <brianbaylis@juno.com>
>To: dcwilson3@yahoo.com
>Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
>Subject: Re: [CR]Dear Quarrelling Framebuilders...
>Message-ID: <20060801.072216.24743.570822@webmail24.lax.untd.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Precedence: list
>Message: 7
>
>
>Don,
>
>Actually there are a number of issues involved, most have been
>
>amongst us for a long time. I'm pretty sure the builders on your list
>
>would find humor in our exchange. There's no question in my mind
>
>whatsoever that each and every one of the named has had some sort of
>
>difference of personality or opinion with another framebuilder. To
>
>expect all of us to get along and agree with everything is clearly
>
>unreasonable. If you stick around and be patient, there's a really
>
>good chance you will learn some pretty important things about
>
>framebuilding. Don't focus on the conflict, focus on what can be
>
>learned from it. Sometimes learning isn't all warm and fuzzy;
>
>sometimes learning and growing requires some shaking up.
>
>The fact of the matter is that there are at least two extremes of
>
>personality and philosophy in our group. You have to expect some
>
>drama. Trust me, we all shall learn some things (good things) about
>
>one another if you just be patient.
>
>I know for sure Mario was at odds with several people. Framebuilders
>
>are human. Let us work it out. Deep down inside we all love each
>
>other and respect each other's work. On the surface we still have our
>
>diffenences. I expect ultimately there will be a greater
>
>understanding amongst us, but we have to work through some stuff
>
>first. Give us a chance. It is you who will beifit.
>
>Brian Baylis
>La Mesa, CA
>
>-- Don Wilson <dcwilson3@yahoo.com> wrote:
>I only know one way to stop this quarrel, which I
>accidentally tripped by asking if there were a book
>about how to file ornate lugs.
>
>Bozzi, Cinelli, Confente, Hetchins, Herse, Masi,
>Nagasawa, Philbrook, Quinn, Singer, Stump et al, they
>are watching you...some from heaven, some from
>earth...to decide which of you to admit to the legacy.
>
>
>Before you say one more thing, ask yourselves what the
>masters would think of a public pissing match over
>this topic?
>
>Don Wilson
>Los Olivos, CA USA
>
>
>
>
>
>
>D.C. Wilson dcwilson3@yahoo.com
>-----------------------------------------------------------
>Note: This message may contain confidential and/or privileged
>information. If you are not the addressee or authorized to
>receive this for the addressee, you must not use, copy, disclose or
>
>take any action based on this message or any information herein. If
>
>you have received this message in error, please advise the sender
>
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>Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 14:39:57 GMT
>From: "brianbaylis@juno.com" <brianbaylis@juno.com>
>To: patrick-ajdb@sbcglobal.net
>Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
>Subject: Re: [CR]Curt Goodrich & John Greene: Where is the love, guys?
>Message-ID: <20060801.074015.24743.571027@webmail24.lax.untd.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Precedence: list
>Message: 8
>
>
>David,
>
>Thank you very much for putting this into perspective. I'm not only
>
>encouraging people to think about framebuilding a little differently,
>
>but to cast off a lot of the garbage that many of us consider facts
>
>and truths about the nature of frames and framebuilding. A lot of the
>
>garbage comes from the industry inself. It comes in the form of
>
>advertising and promotion and much of the selective and twisted
>
>information that passes for advertising is what sends people in the
>
>wrong direction, if true understanding is the goal. Many benifit from
>
>this from a business standpoint. But just as many suffer at the hands
>
>of big marketing because people in general are too lazy to actually
>
>do the research themselves. Then "authorities" come along and make it
>
>easy to decide "what to think" instead of providing accurate and
>
>helpful relavent information. Teach people "how to think" is my view.
>
>I'm pro education and anti advertising and always have been. BS
>
>advertising is what makes me angry. Yes, it's part of "how business
>
>is done"; which is exactly why I don't claim to be "in business" as a
>
>framebuilder. My purpose is quite different. Apparently this is
>
>disturbing to some framebuilders.
>
>
>Don't expect me to join in. If I have to stand alone on these
>
>principals, then so be it. Sorry if it make some people nervous. I
>
>intend no harm, I only want truth and knowledge to be the foundations
>
>of our beliefs. (Yeah, I know, fat chance, but I'm going to try
>
>anyway).
>
>Brian Baylis
>La Mesa, CA
>
>
>
>-- David Patrick <patrick-ajdb@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>Curt,
>
>
>
> Your reply to Brian's post really strikes me as being off-base and
>
>missing the point, and I can only hope that your comments were the
>
>result of record-high temps in Minneapolis these past few days.
>
>
>
> Brian said in his post: ".... framebuilding is pretty simple in the
>
>basic form and most anyone with reasonable motor skills, some
>
>patience, and a good dose of common sense, and a little practice, can
>
>build excellent bike frames". I think the key here are the
>
>words "...in the basic form....". To me, Brian was just trying to
>
>encourage CR members to perhaps pick up a set of torches and give
>
>framebuilding a try, and that they should not be intimidated by the
>
>framebuilding process. In all seriousness, Curt, don't Brian's
>
>comments pretty much sum up your past ten years of framebuilding? You
>
>got an itch to build frames, moved to Seattle, kicked around from
>
>mentor to mentor (or shop to shop), picking up skills here & there,
>
>then you fell into the Rivendell gig after having about 5-6 years of
>
>experience under your belt.
>
>
>
> I've built two framesets to date and I was happy with the results.
>
>Do I still have a lot to learn? Sure, but my initial efforts were
>
>not garbage. I don't know if any of NASA's old space chimps could
>
>build a frame, but I'm quite sure that the majority of CR members are
>
>capable of picking up a set of torches and turning out a very
>
>serviceable first frameset (note to CR members: I'm not comparing you
>
>to space chimps!!!). Hats off to Brian for giving the CR membership
>
>encouragement to do so, which is something I haven't seen from any
>
>other established framebuilders on the CR list.
>
>
>
> Now it seems you & John Greene are involved in some sort of pissing
>
>contest with Brian over this "mystery framebuilder". Guys: I don't
>
>think the CR membership is privy to the ins and outs of the high-
>pressure, highly-charged, politicized world of framebuilders, so this
>
>is all over our heads. We have no idea who you guys are referring
>
>to, which to me is further proof that Brian's comments were not
>
>intended as malicious. Perhaps the two of you can mount your own
>
>militias and do your attacking somewhere else? Bottom line: Brian
>
>Baylis has been extremely generous on this list with his knowledge
>
>and encouragement, something I haven't seen from
>
>other "framebuilders", and his post to the CR list was meant to "de-
>mystify" the framebuilding process and as a bit of encouragement to
>
>CR members who have given thought to taking a stab at framebuilding.
>
>
>
>
>
> Dave Patrick
> Chelsea, Michigan
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 08:13:16 -0700
>From: "Norma Gonzalez" <joeysarah@sbcglobal.net>
>To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
>Subject: [CR]Shipping tandem frame set to Hawaii
>Message-ID: <000c01c6b57d$04976d10$6401a8c0@anonymous>
>Content-Type: text/plain;charset="Windows-1252"
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Precedence: list
>Message: 9
>
>Bob wrote:
>
> Anyone have any experience with this?
>
> BOB FREITAS
> MILL VALLEY,CA
>
>I would check with Bill or Jan McReady at Santana tandems
>(http://www.santanatandem.com/ phone (800) 334-6136). They obviously
>ship tandems all over the place and they also run tours in Hawaii.
>
>Chris Gonzalez
>Carmel, CA
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 11:56:19 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
>From: Nick Zatezalo <nickzz@mindspring.com>
>To: CR List <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
>Subject: [CR]Framebuilders of the future???
>Message-ID: <23892199.1154447779523.JavaMail.root@mswamui-thinleaf.atl.sa.
earthlink.net>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>Precedence: list
>Reply-To: Nick Zatezalo <nickzz@mindspring.com>
>Message: 10
>
>I know we spend most of our time discussing bicycles and gear from
>the past or made using traditional methods.
>
>What does the future hold for those of us with these preferences?
>
>Who will be building lugged steel bicycle frames 20 years from now?
>
>Nick Zatezalo
>Atlanta,Ga.
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 09:23:50 -0700
>From: Brandon Ives <brandon@ivycycles.com>
>To: Nick Zatezalo <nickzz@mindspring.com>
>Cc: CR List <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
>Subject: Re: [CR]Framebuilders of the future???
>Message-ID: <4D32F0D6-864E-493A-B5BD-B3F6BE484D3B@ivycycles.com>
>In-Reply-To: <23892199.1154447779523.JavaMail.root@mswamui-thinleaf.atl.sa
.earthlink.net>
>References: <23892199.1154447779523.JavaMail.root@mswamui-thinleaf.atl.sa.
earthlink.net>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
>MIME-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v749.3)
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>Precedence: list
>Message: 11
>
>Had you asked that 10-15 years ago I would have said most likely no
>one, but right now the tubing and lug selection is better than it has
>been since the '70s. Since it seems that anybody that can hold a
>torch is starting to call themselves a framebuilder after a UBI class
>and 2 frames I'm sure someone will be left. There will always be
>folks building and hopefully customers to sell to. I figure I've got
>25-30 years of building in my hands so if you want it I'll build it.
>As I've said before on the list if people don't support young
>traditional framebuilders, traditional framebuilding will
>disappear. Though most of the guys like myself are combining the
>old with the new as you can see with my latest project at <http://
>tinyurl.com/f5svu>. The only aspect of the frame that would be
>"traditional" might be the lugs and the built by hand thing. In the
>end it the bike will be bombing through the woods with one-speed and
>a bouncy fork.
>best,
>Brandon"monkeyman"Ives
>Off to file some dropouts
>before heading to work on
>the newest CF wonder bikes
>after which I'll be riding through
>the woods on a double boinging
>bike in Coeur d'Alene, Idaho
>
>PS: As someone once told me 'ride what ya brung.'
>
>
>On Aug 1, 2006, at 8:56 AM, Nick Zatezalo wrote:
>
>> I know we spend most of our time discussing bicycles and gear from
>> the past or made using traditional methods.
>>
>> What does the future hold for those of us with these preferences?
>>
>> Who will be building lugged steel bicycle frames 20 years from now?
>>
>> Nick Zatezalo
>> Atlanta,Ga.
>------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>
>End of Classicrendezvous Digest, Vol 44, Issue 2
>************************************************