Re: [CR]Ebay transactions and responsiblity

Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 15:14:25 -0800 (PST)
From: Jerome & Elizabeth Moos <>
Subject: Re: [CR]Ebay transactions and responsiblity
To: Raymond Dobbins <>, Classic Rendezvous Bike List <>
In-Reply-To: <>

Well, God knows I don't pretend to know everything that goes into PayPal's thinking, but when one files a claim and receives the payment of that claim, one's position has basically be accepted.

Unless I'm missing something, Steven didn't "run into" any situation, he was just recounting his version, highly inaccurate in my opinion, of my own experience. If you mean Greg Overton's earlier account of his experience, there is not the slightest similarity. According to Greg, a buyer claimed nondelivery immpediately upon shipping, and evidently never did pay for the goods. I, on the other hand, waited to the last day permitted by PayPal policy to file a claim, and when the goods finally did arrive, returned the money immediately without even a request or inquiry from the seller, PayPal, or anyone else. Disclaimers may have some merit, but simply stating you position does not necessarily mean that the buyer, Paypal or the credit card companies will ultimately accept that position if a problem arises. Markets, even rather chaotic ones like eBay, have their rules, and participants in those markets have only limited ability to change those rules simply by declaring their intention to do so.


Jerry Moos Big Spring, Republic of Texas

Raymond Dobbins <> wrote: Jerry wrote:

"the seller claimed to have no responsibility for whether the item was in fact delivered. I disagreed with that. PayPal obviously agreed with me."

Jerry, are you sure that is what happened? I don't believe Paypal "agreed with you" that the seller was responsible for ensuring delivery, because that is simply not the Paypal policy. Check for yourself if you are in doubt. I am sure that Paypal's decision in your favor was based on the fact that the seller did not have sufficient proof of mailing.

As a consequence of this discussion, I will begin to make the necessary of disclaimer of responsibility for delivery in my eBay auctions. I ship out of the country quite a bit, and I don't want to run into the same situation that Steven and your German seller ran into.

Ray Dobbins Miami Florida USA

Jerome & Elizabeth Moos <> wrote: We've been over this ground before, but as I said at the time of the incident referred to, the PayPal policy of a 30 day deadline leaves a buyer no choice but to file a complaint on the 30th day or give up all right to recovery. As to bad-mouthing the seller, I stated that the goods had not been delivered by the 30 day deadline, which was an absolute and undisputed fact. I also stated that the seller claimed to have no responsibility for whether the item was in fact delivered. I disagreed with that. PayPal obviously agreed with me.

I would have preferred to have waited another couple of weeks before filing a PayPal claim, but the PayPal policy made this impossible. I would have waited well beyond the 30 day deadline, and have often done so when I have a positive history with the seller, but this was the only item I had ever purchased from him, so I had no way to know whether to trust him or not. As soon as the goods did arrive after more than six weeks, I immediately returned the recovered funds to the seller via PayPal, telling him I regretted the inconvenience, but didn't know what other course of action I could have taken under the circumstances. He took the funds, but never bothered to respond to my email.

This and a couple of other experiences taught me that certain countries, Germay and Holland included, have very long shipping times to the US, probably mostly due to the actions of US Customs. As in this instance, this can create real problems. I've since basically limited my purchases from Germany to CR members. As several others have stated, I've never had a problem transaction with a list member that has not been resolved. So even if a purchase from a German CR member takes 3 months or more to arrive, I don't worry about it, as I trust it will arrive eventually.


Jerry Moos Big Spring, Texas

The Maaslands wrote: Jerry wrote:

"Well, PayPal's policy and that of most credit card companies is that the seller is responsible for lost shipments. "

This is not true. Both require that the seller have irrefutable proof that the item was delivered according to the sales conditions. If the seller clearly states that the delivery is the responsability of the purchaser and can demonstrate that the goods were in fact delivered to the delivery agent, neither Paypal nor the cerdit card companies will ever side with the purchaser. Unfortunately this virtually means that the seller must pay for tracing.

Jerry goes on to state: "That's the main reason I am suspicious of eBay setters that don't take PayPal. That said there is still some grey area here."

I don't see any grey area whatsoever. I prefer not to accept paypal and state as much to all buyers in my invoices. The first reason is for the costs involved, the second is due the fact that I once had a fellow make an unwarranted claim against me. Notwithstanding that I immediately supplied all the necessary details to the paypal dispute resolution team, it took close to a month before I had access to my money. At the same time, all further incoming payments were also blocked. BTW, the fellow, who I believe to now be a former CR-listmember, continued to claim that the item never was delivered, but an identical, very rare item newly showed up "by miracle" on one of his bikes shortly after Paypal turned down his refund request. The buyer did not however ever admit to having received it.

Jerry in another post also recalls a transaction where he had decided to not pay extra for expedited shipment of an item from Germany. He made a claim against the seller through paypal at a point in time where normal delivery was not even assured according to the standard delivery timing given by the German postal authority. The claim was made at that time because he was afraid that the allowable time period for claims through Paypal was about to pass. He not only unfairly got Paypal to refund his payment, he also badmouthed the seller on this forum. Then, surprise surprise, the item arrived (within the foreseen time as per the German postal authority website) and Jerry made an apology about the unwarranted disparagement, but the damage had already been done to the reputation of the seller and the seller was also forced to suffer the same problems that I described in my own Paypal dispute case above. Jerry claims to have made good on the payment to the seller, but what about all the other accessory costs that he incurred to the seller?

In my ebay blocked bidder list, there are three categories of people who are included: 1) the deadbeats who bid but don't pay, 2) the people who abuse sellers in general (there is one purveyor of vintage bike parts whose own feedback record remains private, hence immune from verification both of feedback received as well as feedback left for others, who just happens to be the sole person to ever give a negative feedback to numerous 'competing' vintage bike component suppliers) and 3) those who are simply not worth the hassle to deal with. This last case includes those I feel to have acted unfairly or dishonorably and unfortunately includes a number of CR listmembers.

Steven Maasland
Moorestown, NJ