listers, I have totally no idea what went down causing Doug Smith's troubled departure from this august body and like Norris i rail at condescending diatribes which have been part of this list from time to time. To this fella this list is about sharing knowledge , tips ,contacts and the love of beautiful machines. If you have difficulties with another lister.. common sense dictates an offlist email .. but alas common wit ain't common. Norris right on!! You were right to out that yoke and in no way would anyone with pride in their frame building skills wish any association with the cycle. [ bespoke as a verb]. i find it exceedingly difficult to take any offence in the manner you used to this list. i , however, have more to occupy me than to discuss the finer points of our uncommon language. Dale SAID. enough already, more than!! WILLIE CARTON ..COLERAINE N. IRELAND.where it is not raining!! 21 miles today 2/3C
Norris Lockley <norris.lockley@talktalk.net> wrote: I would like to just add my name to the list of those who are sad to read that Doug is no longer going to contribute to the List and who are equally upset about the circumstances that led to his decision.
It seems to be the case that some issues tend to raise controversy and lead to heated exchanges, but why ,when the List is all about our hobby and pastime. About a week ago I outed, in all good faith, a Bespoke on UK Ebay, in order to point out that it was not a Bespoke Bicycle Company "Bespoke"..and that I had not had any part in its design of manufacture. It was, in my humble opinion, a grotesquely ugly and inelegant machine. I outed it because there have been two occasions in the past year or so when List members have outed, or raised a query about a Bespoke frame on Ebay, and these concerned a frame which might genuinely have been one of my own. Quite recently there was another Bespoke on UK Ebay..a large low-pro time -trial machine. No one on the List spotted it, but it had all the signs of being genuine..a full set of Bespoke transfers. I made enquiries of the seller who spoke about its authenticity. However I knew for certain that it wasn't one that I had made because it was fully lugged, with an untidy seat-lug cluster, and external fork crown whereas all my time-trials, low-pro or not, are fully bronze-welded...seamless in appearance, and use internal fork crowns. The appearance of this machine came shortly after I had been sent photos of another..and I will not be modest here..superb short-wheelbase time-trial machine of a very unusual design frame that I had made in the early 80s..I would place it in the top 10 of all the frames I have made..and here it was, in the photos carrying the transfers of another well-known builder ( who well knows how to contact me for transfers). However the worst part of the matter was that this particular builder had not only retransferred it, but also filed off my serial number and added his own!
When I outed the "bespoke" bike the other week I received a flood of emails, both off and on-List, some of which were very offensive, needlessly so. If I want to be offended I can find other ways to do it rather than leave it to List members.
For those who attempted to give me a lesson in vocabulary and the meaning of "bespoke" let me respond now by saying "Yes" I know full well both its derivation and meaning, and "no " I wasn't trying to claim that I had invented or discovered the word. My only claim in that sense is that having been born in the town that used to be the centre of the UK "bespoke" tailoring trade, I was well aware of the meaning of the word, but was the first to use it, some 40 years ago, in the cycle trade. I thought I was quite bright at the time to link the "made-to-measure" meaning of the tailoring connection with the "spoke" connection of the cycle industry.
I think that any of the frame-builders on the LIst would agree that when one has spent thousands of hours producing "one-off" and totally unique products, the last thing that you need is to have someone or something trading off or associating with, the reputation your products have built up. I feel strongly about the reputation of my frames, and, in this latest Ebay instance, I just did not want my company name to be associated with the monster being auctioned.
I had not intended to post a contribution of this type, but in the light of Doug's departure I felt it might useful to point out how unjustifiably offensive some emails can be.
In retrospect maybe, all those 40 years ago I was not as bright as I thought I was at the time when I founded "The Bespoke Bicycle Company". Perhaps i should have had the native wit to foresee the problems the name would cause me in future years. But as they say " We can all be wise with hindsight"
Norris Lockley, Settle UK
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