RE: [CR]BB height, what's considered high or low?

(Example: Bike Shops:R.E.W. Reynolds)

From: "Ken Freeman" <freesound@comcast.net>
To: <oroboyz@aol.com>, <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
Subject: RE: [CR]BB height, what's considered high or low?
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 23:20:45 -0500
thread-index: AcctK+03xmnxW7hwSR6OybOZF022HAALx2Rg
In-Reply-To: <8C8FB43077154A1-C14-88F8@FWM-M13.sysops.aol.com>


I opined to Chuck that a bbd of 8cm is in my mind a low BB and a 6.5 cm one is a high bb, assuming 700C tubulars with (let's just say) a 336.5 mm radius, corresponding to a 22 mm tire, 22.622.

Dale's threshold height for "low" is 10.5 inches, or 26.7 cm. His threshold for "high" is 10.75 inches or 27.3 cm. Using my 22.622 tire radius, the BBD for a low bb is 6.95 cm, and the BBD threshold for "high" is 6.35 cm. My idea for high does not agree with Dale's, and my idea for low does. I defer to Dale's experience as a builder, whereas I just play with math.

Ken Freeman Ann Arbor, MI USA

-----Original Message----- From: classicrendezvous-bounces@bikelist.org [mailto:classicrendezvous-bounces@bikelist.org] On Behalf Of oroboyz@aol.com Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 5:35 PM To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: [CR]BB height, what's considered high or low?

OK, let's state some accepted practices:

Generally speaking, for traditional road bikes: - below 10 1/2" is in the "low" range.. - 10 1/2" -10 3/4 " is moderately normal - above 10 3/4" is high...

'Course all things are relative. Obviously tire size can change things Dale Brown Greensboro, North Carolina USA

-----Original Message----- From: chuckschmidt@earthlink.net To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Sent: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 12:18 PM Subject: Re: [CR]Was: Woodrup frames. Now: BB height, etc.

A fascinating aspect to this whole discussion of high and low BB height is that there hasn't been a single dimension mentioned as to what would be considered a high or low BB.

Hilarious...

Chuck Schmidt South Pasadena, CA

On Dec 31, 2006, at 6:41 AM, oroboyz@aol.com wrote:

> Hey Ken: > > I can't help but wonder about a couple of things you wrote here: > > << Mine (1980, pre-TSD) also has a high BB, the drop is about 6.4 > cm. Compares > > to about a cm more for my Trek and others. I think this > contributes to the > > Woodrup's sense of stability. >> > > > > "In Theory" the lower the BB, the more stable and of course the > opposite for
> > higher BBs. > > > > In fact, if I remember correctly, that is one of Richard Sach's unique >
> characteristics in his frames... He has used quite a bit lower bb > height
> > and while you may not be able to pedal through the curves quite as > much, > > that is a well considered trade-off that results in a more secure > control > > (stability)while cornering. > > > > I think that much of the sought after stability and steering > accuracy is part > > of accurate frame alignment and dishined wheels... So many frames, > of all quality > > levels, are not straight.. Just a 1/2 CM in misalignment can make a > huge > > difference and we tend to blame other factors (frame angles, > dimensions) > > when in fact, if the frame were carefully aligned, would make the > bikes > > ride ever so much better....

> > > > << My theory is that both of my frames are small frames, and > subject to
> > compromises inherent in minimizing toe overlap and gettign adequate > front > > tire to downtube clearance, without extremely long top tubes. One > design > > feature to address this is to raise the BB, and another is to lay > back the > > head tube to perhaps 72 degrees. >> > > > > In my (limited) experience, the reason many builders/manufacturers > make >
> a higher BB in smaller frame is to solve the problem/save a lot of > work
> > in joinery at the compacted head tube /head lugs area... > > By raising the BB, that allows raising the upper head lug, > allowing quick and unmodified use of the > stock lugs. I.e., no cutting or fitting, etc. Another solution to > this was a one-piece head lug > that allowed the top tube & down tube to intersect... > > On road bikes of any size, I don't think > the clearance of the down tube vs tire is much concern... > > 'Course I could be wrong. It is fun the theorize about all this > mysterious stuff! > > Happy New Year! > > Dale > > > Dale Brown > Greensboro, NC USA > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: freesound@comcast.net > To: jerrymoos@sbcglobal.net; hydelake@verizon.net; > Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org > Sent: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 7:43 PM > Subject: RE: [CR] WOODRUP frames > > Jerry, > > Mine (1980, pre-TSD) also has a high BB, the drop is about 6.4 cm. > Compares > to about a cm more for my Trek and others. I think this > contributes to the > Woodrup's sense of stability. The SOH on mine is 77.6 cm, seat > tube is 53.5 > c-t, 52 cm c-c. > > My '84 or so Mondonico (sure looks on-topic, but I can't be sure!) > has a BB > drop of 7.2, 52 cm c-c seat tube, and 78.3 cm SOH. Both bikes seem > to have > high BBs, so I don't think national style is necessarily being > illustrated > here. My theory is that both of my frames are small frames, and > subject to > compromises inherent in minimizing toe overlap and gettign adequate > front > tire to downtube clearance, without extremely long top tubes. One > design > feature to address this is to raise the BB, and another is to lay > back the > head tube to perhaps 72 degrees. My Woodrup and Mondonico > respectively have > head tube angles of 72.0 degrees and 72.4 degrees (I have less > confidence in > this latter number). > > Both bikes are sort of a French fit for me. > > Ken Freeman > Ann Arbor, MI USA > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: classicrendezvous-bounces@bikelist.org > [mailto:classicrendezvous-bounces@bikelist.org] On Behalf Of Jerome & > Elizabeth Moos > Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2006 11:56 AM > To: Barb & Dan Artley; Classic Rendezvous > Subject: RE: [CR] WOODRUP frames > > I have an early/mid 80's Woodrup. Nice bike, but does have a very > high > bottom bracket. Haven't measured the actual BB height, but the > standover
> height is what I'd expect on a bike with a seat tube about 2 cm > longer. No > one else has mentioned this, but were high BB's typical of > Woodrup? On the > other hand I also have a 52 cm ctc 1988 Mercian KOM with a > standover height > about the same as a 55 cm French of Italian frame, so maybe the > high BB's > were a British thing in the 80's. > > Regards, > > Jerry Moos > Big Spring, TX > > > > Barb & Dan Artley <hydelake@verizon.net> wrote: > I can't say how pleased I am hearing so much of Woodrup Cycles. A > Woodrup > was my first really nice race bike replacing what I considered more > of a > tourer, my PX-10 (Sorry Peter K.). It was unfortunately crashed, badly > repaired and sold, but recently repurchased. I'm hoping that > someday it will > get the restoration it deserves for the fond memories of my only > race season > back in 1973. Thanks to all who've provided this information. Does > anyone > know if they are still building keepers of the flame in lugged > steel? ... > More? > > Dan Artley in Parkton, Maryland > > Archive-URL: > http://search.bikelist.org/getmsg.asp?Filename=classicrendezvous.> 10612.

> 1653.eml > Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 21:57:24 -0500 > Subject: RE: [CR] WOODRUP frames
> From: Doug Fattic > > The subject of Woodrup frames reminds me of my own experiences > visiting > their framebuilding shop when I was learning to build at Ellis Briggs. > I > wanted to learn how to do a fluted seat stay top like what was on > my Masi > and Jack Briggs rang up Woodrup to see if one of them would be > willing to > show me how. What I vaguely remember Jack Briggs telling me was > that somehow > Jack's father helped Woodrup get started. The date around 1953 or 4 > sticks > in my mind from our conversation about it. Leeds is about 15 miles > to the > east from the much smaller town of Shipley where Ellis Briggs is > located. > The good size city of Bradford is about 3 miles to the south. > In > other words, these places are one big megalopolis. 15 British miles > is not > 15 American miles. The roads are not laid out on a square because > of the > shape of the land and going to Leeds seemed like a big trip. It was > lots of > stop and go city driving on winding roads in my old Morris Minor. This > generosity (to help others when it wasn't to his own advantage) was > part of > Jack's character too and something I've been deeply grateful for > (since he > did the same for me). > > I was a little shy going in the door and was glad Jack had asked > permission > for me. One of the sons (I don't remember which one) spent several > hours of > the afternoon showing me what to do. That day he was the only one > there. I > had some seat stays with me and he demonstrated how to miter the > end and > braze another piece of tubing in that place and then file off the > excess. I > looked around a bit and realized they did things a bit differently > than > Briggs. I also remember him suggesting to me that there wasn't much > need now > days (as in 1975) to pin frames together before brazing since > hearth brazing > was replaced with oxyacetylene brazing. As he explained, a spot > isn't likely > to break or move. All in all a valuable and pleasant afternoon. As > a newbie,
> I was respectful of his advice and didn't try to argue how we did > things a > bit differently at Briggs. My impression was that Woodrup was a bit > more > production oriented - meaning that they concentrated on getting a > certain > number of frames made in a decent way in a week. > It > was the primary thing that brought in money for them. The frame > shop at
> Briggs when I was there was a bit more of an extension of the bigger > business. There was the regular retail sales on the ground floor with > several sales people. There were the regular Raleigh and other > bikes and
> another area had pro stuff. In the back was the repair shop with 2 > workers. > Upstairs in one room was Bill and Rodney the painters and in > another, Andrew > mostly made the frames one at a time to a particular person. The > result of > not having framebuilding be the center of the business was that it > allowed a > bit more individual attention to be paid to each frame being made. > Jack > never pressured Andrew to be more productive, he just wanted him to > make > them right. Jack himself also helped out in there but mostly he and > his wife > kept an eye on the entire business. When he was in the frame shop, > it was > primarily to teach me and share his considerable knowledge or finalize > instructions about another frame for Andrew to build. Those > circumstances > really were a benefit to me which I have always deeply appreciated. > Another > advantage was the ability to wander into the paint room next door and > observe all the steps in painting. Bill and Rodney always enjoyed > company
> and Andrew and I also ate our lunch in there. > > There are lots more memories of that time but not more time to > write about > them now. About the other framebuilders in West Yorkshire and the area > itself. > > Doug Fattic > Niles, Michigan USA > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Classicrendezvous mailing list > Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org > http://www.bikelist.org/mailman/listinfo/classicrendezvous > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Classicrendezvous mailing list > Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org > http://www.bikelist.org/mailman/listinfo/classicrendezvous > > _______________________________________________ > Classicrendezvous mailing list > Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org > http://www.bikelist.org/mailman/listinfo/classicrendezvous > > ______________________________________________________________________> __ > Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and > security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from > across the web, free AOL Mail and more. > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative
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