Well, personally, I don't consider agreeing not to bid or splitting lots to be shilling. No one is obligated to bid on anything, either legally, morally, ethically or otherwise. And I may decide not to bid for any reason, good or bad, or for no reason at all. No seller or auctioneer has any right to challenge my nonparticipation or to question my reasons for such.
Now submittng shill bids is a different matter, as one is making active use of the auctioneer's facilities to manipulate the result to the detriment of other bidders. Auctioneers do have the right and obligation to prevent shill bids, although of course eBay makes no real attempt to do so, since shill bids benefit them. And in the example of the live auction, the auctioneer is within his rights to insist that discussions of nonparticipation not take place on his premises.
Regards,
Jerry Moos Big Spring, TX
Steve Birmingham <sbirmingham@mindspring.com> wrote: George makes some good points here, but I believe they mostly apply to higher end auction houses like sothebys, and maybe some lesser ones.
BUT those places don't allow shilling, and often prosecute when it happens. Ebay dosen't do a very good job of preventing shilling, if they do anything at all after all, shilling benefits Ebay as well as the seller. And this new policy is practically an invitation to have shilling
Small local auctions of the live sort do a reasonable job of preventing shilling and collusive bidding. Which IS what you do when you don't bid on something a friend is bidding on, or agree with a friend to split a lot. (like I want the frame, and my friend wants the parts so I bid and we part it out later)Most collusion is like this, Only technical, and very hard to prove howmuch the bid changed, let alone what happened. In a case like getting together to part out a bike, the winning bid is probably higher anyway. At local antique auction I went to a guy sitting in the front row offered to split a lot with his friend 2 deats over. The auctioneer immediately stopped and told them not to do that where he could hear, or he'd have them removed. If he'd allowed it, and the right complaints were made he could have lost his license.
At these local auctions, you don't know the identities of the bidders other than stuff like red hat guy is buying lots of china or blue dress woman pays a lot for oak furniture. If you go often enough, you may get to know some of them, just like on ebay.
Steve Birmingham Lowell,Ma USA
Subject: [CR]Thoughts on eBay and auctions Message: 10
Auctions, like other other forms of business, follow certain standards. The modern standard has been, that unless otherwise stipulated, both the seller and the buyer remain anonymous. Exceptions exist, especially if provenance of the auctioned object is important. But, generally speaking, the identity of buyers is protected. The auction house has the responsibility of acertaining the integrity of the buyer, seller and what is is being sold. Like all businesses, there are good and bad auctioneers and auctions. eBay is the exception to this anonymity standard-and other standards too, some of which I think are being tested currently in American courts. Frankly, I don't think my buying habits are anyone's business unless I desire to make them public and I resent eBay's practice of doing so. They have attempted to create an environment in which they are brokers, avoiding the responsibilities of auctioneers. I welcome the changes they are instituting and hope for more-a lot more.
George Hollenberg MD
CT, USA