Re: [CR]Re: Is this an old Cinelli road frame or what?


Example: Framebuilders:Pino Morroni
From: <hersefan@comcast.net>
To: oroboyz@aol.com, hsachs@alumni.rice.edu
Subject: Re: [CR]Re: Is this an old Cinelli road frame or what?
Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 01:44:46 +0000
cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org

Perhaps I am missing something - the bike being later seems to be rather obvious. The first clue is the lugs - they are the later style that came into use around the late 1950's. I think Pergolizzi's bike that was on ebay a few weeks ago had those earlier style lugs, and there are a number of Cinelli bikes out there that have them.

To my eyes, the frame looks nearly identical to the one I had on ebay last week that didn't hit $700 (sold later off ebay for a good bit more, all very surprising). The dropouts on Dale's bike do look like later ones (the clue to the one I was selling as likely having had a dropout replacement I think). The one I sold was certainly built around 1959 to 1961. I'd peg the date of the bike in question as being from 1958 to even as late as 1967 - with the dropouts pushing the build date to the later period as wise Harvey Sachs points out.

Cinelli Serial numbers from what I can tell are generally meaningless - a "stroll" through the Cupertino log book years ago showed very weak correlation between year and serial number, although bikes sold in very close time to one another often had close numbers. But those batches of similar numbers were not sequential. Quite maddening!

Another clue would be if the bike in question accomodated the reproduction headbadge without difficulty - if so it is a late 50's bike or later. The really hard-to-find earlier bikes used a larger size headbadge with screws for fastening farther apart.

Mike Kone in Boulder CO


-------------- Original message --------------
From: oroboyz@aol.com

> Harv:

\r?\n>

\r?\n> I hear this is the case:

\r?\n> << there were much earlier drop-outs without the boss and hole. >>

\r?\n>

\r?\n> Open C is the clue there (I am told)

\r?\n>

\r?\n>

\r?\n> Dale Brown

\r?\n> Greensboro, North Carolina USA

\r?\n>

\r?\n>

\r?\n>

\r?\n>

\r?\n>

\r?\n>

\r?\n> -----Original Message-----

\r?\n> From: hmsachs@verizon.net

\r?\n> To: oroboyz@aol.com

\r?\n> Cc: hsachs@alumni.rice.edu; classicrendezvous@bikelist.org

\r?\n> Sent: Thu, 3 May 2007 8:30 PM

\r?\n> Subject: Re: Is this an old Cinelli road frame or what?

\r?\n>

\r?\n> With all due respect, Dale, I believe that the bike is post-1961. Either that,

\r?\n> or the right rear dropout has been replaced. It is my understanding, which could

\r?\n> be wrong, that 1961 and earlier Campy drop-outs with gear hangers all had a

\r?\n> raised boss ~ 5 mm wide with a rounded upper edge. This extended from the gear

\r?\n> hanger upwards. In almost all cases, this boss was penetrated by a small hole ~

\r?\n> 1 mm diameter, which was the stop for the tension spring on the Campy Sport and

\r?\n> similar derailleurs. The pictures clearly show that this bike has neither boss

\r?\n> nor hole.

\r?\n>

\r?\n> To me, the simplest hypothesis is that this bike is post-1961. Alternatives:

\r?\n> 1) pre-1961, but drop-out replaced later, perhaps when refinished.

\r?\n> 2) Harvey's wrong, and there were much earlier drop-outs without the boss and

\r?\n> hole. I'd love to find out about such.

\r?\n>

\r?\n> I speculate, but it seems to me to be much easier to make a bike in the 1960s

\r?\n> with earlier components than to make one in the 1950s with 1960s components.

\r?\n> Indeed, I have one complete set each of 531 DB tubes and Columbus tubes, NIB,

\r?\n> and waiting to build up a 1970s frameset each. :-)

\r?\n>

\r?\n> thanks

\r?\n> harvey sachs

\r?\n> mcLean va.

\r?\n>

\r?\n> oroboyz@aol.com wrote:

\r?\n>

\r?\n> > I knew a few would love to challenge that query...

\r?\n> > > That particular Altenburger-equipped Cinelli you refer to is now watched >

\r?\n> over by Ken Wallace, proprietor and keeper of the women at the Bisbee > Bicycle

\r?\n> Brothel. The serial number will tell us more...

\r?\n> > > This just sold Cinelli is older than I( thought, subsequent details lead >

\r?\n> many astute observers to place it at least solidly in the 1950s, even > early

\r?\n> that decade...

\r?\n> > > Dale Brown

\r?\n> > cycles de ORO, Inc.

\r?\n> > 1410 Mill Street

\r?\n> > Greensboro, North Carolina 27408 USA

\r?\n> > 336.274.5959

\r?\n> > http://www.cyclesdeoro.com

\r?\n> > http://www.classicrendezvous.com

\r?\n> > > > -----Original Message-----

\r?\n> > From: hmsachs@verizon.net

\r?\n> > To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org

\r?\n> > Sent: Thu, 3 May 2007 7:40 PM

\r?\n> > Subject: [CR]eBay self-outing: Is this the oldest Cinelli road frame you >

\r?\n> have

\r?\n> > > Dale Brown asked, provocatively, > > "57 CM, serial #273! Early 1960s?

\r?\n> Maybe even late 1950s? > >

\r?\n> http://ebay.com/<blah>

\r?\n> 60114300318 >

\r?\n> > 260114300318>" > >

\r?\n> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

\r?\n> > AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free > from

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