[CR]Is this an old Cinelli road frame or what?

(Example: Component Manufacturers:Chater-Lea)

Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 07:29:47 -0700
To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
From: "Dr. Paul J.Wilson" <paul@wilsondesigns.net>
Subject: [CR]Is this an old Cinelli road frame or what?

OK, OK, OK!

I can't hold back anymore. I am the proud owner of this Cinelli in question and have already gotten my monies worth!

If any of the CR members have a seat binder bolt (or a reproduction ) for this Cinelli I would love to buy it, as well as excellent condition "period correct" (whatever that may be) parts.

Since this is my first posting and as is the custom with new CR members, I will give a brief introduction.

I joined CR about the first of this year and live in both San Jose and Temecula California. I began my vintage bike collection around Christmas of 2006 because of my love for the vintage bikes. This passion began when I started racing bikes in 1969 and continue to do so right up to this day. I had kept my desire to begin a collection imprisoned for several decades. The monster is now out of its cage. I now have 16 bikes, including: a beautiful 55 Cinelli Model A SC frame, fork & headset, a beautiful 71 Cinelli SC, a beautiful 73 Cinelli Pista, a beautiful 83 Cinelli SC frame, fork, and headset, a beautiful 73 Masi GC, a beautiful 75 Paramount Pista, a beautiful 61 Paramount Road frame & fork, two beautiful 87 Hetchins Magnum Opus 3 Frame, fork & headset, NOS and never assembled, AND a beautiful, yet very unusual 80 ish Battagin with a sloping TT at the seat tube junction, with a seat tube decal displaying "Giro de Italia/ Vuelte de Espania,and with extremely ovalized chain stays, that I cannot get info on its specific usage.

and others not as beautiful.

Later I will post a web site displaying these bikes, together with questions for you experts.

VERY soon I will be selling 7 bikes that I initially acquired due to my over enthusiasm. This occurred before I was able to zero in on just what sort of collection I desired to maintain.

I read daily the CR postings and enjoy them very much.

In closing, could one of you put me in touch with the mental counselor, that surely many of you utilize, to treat my "vintage bike collection" addiction. The addiction is way out of control.

Paul J. Wilson Cell (408) 395-2020, Temecula, California>>(951) 587-3632, San Jose, California 95124>>(408) 377-1710, Fax: (408) 377-1710 After prompting by "outgoing message", press *51, and then hit your "send fax" button.

email: paul@wilsondesigns.net

http://www.wilsondesigns.net


>
>Sender: classicrendezvous-bounces@bikelist.org
>
>Hiroshi Ichikawa, Early Components (translated)
>
><http://tinyurl.com/22ye72>
>(...then click on "drop out ends" and enjoy!)
>
>After that click on all the other subjects to be amazed!
>
>Chuck Schmidt
>South Pasadena, CA
>www.velo-retro.com (reprints, t-shirts & timelines)
>
>
>
>
>
>hersefan@comcast.net wrote:
>The other thing that begs the question is the frame number. Three
>digits. Three digits is very early Cinelli, in my limited
>experience.
>Jay Sexton
>Sebastopol, CA
>
>
>
>
>Sender: classicrendezvous-bounces@bikelist.org
>
>The Cinelli briefly offered on squeebay by our illustrious listowner
>has mid-late 50's (at the latest) Campagnolo rear dropouts.
>
> The "boss" Harvey mentioned was actually added to a new forging
>around the mid-late 50's and had a hole drilled into it for the
>spring tang on the tension-sprung Campy Sport derailleur. It was a
>coupla years at least after that derailleur was introduced. After
>Campy quit making that derailleur in the early-mid 60's (timeline
>overseers please chime in for a more definitive date?), the
>dropout-with-hole was phased out, leaving the boss (but no hole.)
>Later, (late 60's?) the forging was re-done again, this time without
>the boss, and dropouts with "the boss" started to disappear from use
>by the very late 60's.
>
> I just looked at an early 60's Cinelli with "the boss" and hole, a
>'62 Olmo with "the boss" and the hole, a 70 Atala with "the boss"
>but no hole, a 71 Falcon San Remo without the boss, and a 72 Colnago
>with "the boss" (but no hole) so my memory of lots of other bikes is
>somewhat support by examples I could actually look at tonight.
>
> Two other indicators of "early" (pre-60's) Campagnolo dropouts:
>one is the font of the campagnolo stampings on the face ("open c"
>but with "no boss") and the other is the very earliest dropouts in
>addition to being "open c" had a larger diameter (+1mm?) adjusting
>screw. Dale's Cinelli has the "open c" stamping on its dropouts for
>sure. I couldn't tell for sure from the pics if the screw was
>larger, but it WOULD be pretty obvious, hence "my" dating of
>mid-late-ish 50's for the dropouts on Dale's bike.
>
> If the screws WERE larger that'd place the dropout age as early-mid 50's.
>
> Campy timeline experts input welcome.
>
> Dale "f.w.i.w." Phelps
> Montagna lunga Colorado
> Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 20:30:41 -0400
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>From: hersefan@comcast.net
>To: "Via Bicycle" <viabicycle@gmail.com>, Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
>Subject: Re: [CR]Re: Is this an old Cinelli road frame or what? - now
> confused???
>Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 03:01:04 +0000
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>Hmm,
>
>I am getting a bit more confused as folks raise good points...
>
>Does seem to be good possibility that dropouts are the good bit
>earlier ones - but from the photos it looks like the fronts don't
>have the o - and the rear left might not either. But the dropouts
>do have eyelets that appear to be of earlier style (more beefy) -
>but the rear dropouts especially are installed in a very sloppy way
>for a Cinelli - much more sloppy than on any Cinelli I've seen so
>far. Now that doesn't mean they are replaced, it might just mean I
>haven't seen enough. So all this is as clear as mud. And the
>problem with dropouts is that those seem to often hang around shops
>and bins for years if not decades, so dating a bike with them can be
>a tad risky I think.
>
>Regarding the headbadge, I do recall, but I could be wrong, that
>both width and height were different on the earlier ones. That
>isn't to say that the smaller one might have existed earlier than we
>thought, but bikes going back to about 1955 or so seem to use the
>big one and the little badge won't extend to the screw holes (of
>course the old holes could have been filled in).
>
>So the headbadge issue and the fact that the lugs look post 1956 or
>1957 make me think later. My gut is telling me that the bike is
>about a 1957 or 1958 with a mix of earlier dropouts.
>
>In any case, I don't think anyone, especially myself, has this one
>figured out for sure.
>
>Mike Kone in Boulder CO
>
>
>-------------- Original message --------------
>From: "Via Bicycle" <viabicycle@gmail.com>
>
>> Mike,
>> I think as Dale sorta pointed out, the rear dropouts have the earliest
>> style Campagnolo dropouts, "BREV o. Campagnolo" stamping.
>> that is a sign of early 1950s. the spring hole, I believe came later.
> > I know very little about Cinellis, but Campagnolo parts are well
>documented.
>> see hi.campy website-http://www1.ocn.ne.jp/~campa/newpage12.htm
>> (tanslate it of course)
>> John Barron may also be able to elaborate about the dropout.
>> or Steven Maasland.
>> Were the badge holes further apart on the earlier CInellis? I know the
>> badge was a bit taller, but was it equaly wider? I have held the two
>> badges in my hands at once, but cannot recall the width difference,
>> only the height.
>> ralph
>> philadelphia, PA
>>
>>
>> On 5/3/07, hersefan@comcast.net wrote:
>> > Perhaps I am missing something - the bike being later seems to be rather
>> obvious. The first clue is the lugs - they are the later style
>>that came into
>> use around the late 1950's. I think Pergolizzi's bike that was on ebay a few
>> weeks ago had those earlier style lugs, and there are a number of
>>Cinelli bikes
>> out there that have them.
>> >
>> > To my eyes, the frame looks nearly identical to the one I had on ebay last
>> week that didn't hit $700 (sold later off ebay for a good bit more, all very
>> surprising). The dropouts on Dale's bike do look like later ones
>>(the clue to
>> the one I was selling as likely having had a dropout replacement I
>>think). The
>> one I sold was certainly built around 1959 to 1961. I'd peg the
>>date of the bike
>> in question as being from 1958 to even as late as 1967 - with the dropouts
>> pushing the build date to the later period as wise Harvey Sachs points out.
>> >
>> > Cinelli Serial numbers from what I can tell are generally meaningless - a
>> "stroll" through the Cupertino log book years ago showed very weak
>>correlation
>> between year and serial number, although bikes sold in very close
>>time to one
>> another often had close numbers. But those batches of similar
>>numbers were not
>> sequential. Quite maddening!
>> >
>> > Another clue would be if the bike in question accomodated the reproduction
>> headbadge without difficulty - if so it is a late 50's bike or later. The
>> really hard-to-find earlier bikes used a larger size headbadge
>>with screws for
>> fastening farther apart.
>> >
>> > Mike Kone in Boulder CO
>> > -------------- Original message --------------
>> > From: oroboyz@aol.com
>> >
>> > > Harv:
>> > >
>> > > I hear this is the case:
>> > > << there were much earlier drop-outs without the boss and hole. >>
>> > >
>> > > Open C is the clue there (I am told)
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Dale Brown
>> > > Greensboro, North Carolina USA
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > From: hmsachs@verizon.net
>> > > To: oroboyz@aol.com
>> > > Cc: hsachs@alumni.rice.edu; classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
>> > > Sent: Thu, 3 May 2007 8:30 PM
>> > > Subject: Re: Is this an old Cinelli road frame or what?
>> > >
>> > > With all due respect, Dale, I believe that the bike is post-1961. Either
>> that,
>> > > or the right rear dropout has been replaced. It is my
>>understanding, which
>> could
>> > > be wrong, that 1961 and earlier Campy drop-outs with gear
>>hangers all had a
>> > > raised boss ~ 5 mm wide with a rounded upper edge. This
>>extended from the
> > gear
>> > > hanger upwards. In almost all cases, this boss was penetrated by a small
>> hole ~
>> > > 1 mm diameter, which was the stop for the tension spring on
>>the Campy Sport
>> and
>> > > similar derailleurs. The pictures clearly show that this bike
>>has neither
>> boss
>> > > nor hole.
>> > >
>> > > To me, the simplest hypothesis is that this bike is post-1961.
>>Alternatives:
>> > > 1) pre-1961, but drop-out replaced later, perhaps when refinished.
>> > > 2) Harvey's wrong, and there were much earlier drop-outs
>>without the boss
>> and
>> > > hole. I'd love to find out about such.
>> > >
>> > > I speculate, but it seems to me to be much easier to make a bike in the
>> 1960s
>> > > with earlier components than to make one in the 1950s with
>>1960s components.
>> > > Indeed, I have one complete set each of 531 DB tubes and Columbus tubes,
>> NIB,
>> > > and waiting to build up a 1970s frameset each. :-)
>> > >
>> > > thanks
>> > > harvey sachs
>> > > mcLean va.
>> > >
>> > > oroboyz@aol.com wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > I knew a few would love to challenge that query...
> > > > > > That particular Altenburger-equipped Cinelli you refer to
>is now watched
>> >
>> > > over by Ken Wallace, proprietor and keeper of the women at the Bisbee >
>> Bicycle
>> > > Brothel. The serial number will tell us more...
>> > > > > This just sold Cinelli is older than I( thought,
>>subsequent details lead
>> >
>> > > many astute observers to place it at least solidly in the 1950s, even >
>> early
>> > > that decade...
>> > > > > Dale Brown
>> > > > cycles de ORO, Inc.
>> > > > 1410 Mill Street
>> > > > Greensboro, North Carolina 27408 USA
>> > > > 336.274.5959
>> > > > http://www.cyclesdeoro.com
>> > > > http://www.classicrendezvous.com
>> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > > From: hmsachs@verizon.net
>> > > > To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
>> > > > Sent: Thu, 3 May 2007 7:40 PM
>> > > > Subject: [CR]eBay self-outing: Is this the oldest Cinelli
>>road frame you >
>> > > have
>> > > > > Dale Brown asked, provocatively, > > "57 CM, serial #273!
>>Early 1960s?
> > > > Maybe even late 1950s? > >
>> > >
>>
>>http://ebay.com/<blah>
>> > > 60114300318 >
>> > > > 260114300318>" > >
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-- Paul J. Wilson Cell (408) 395-2020, Temecula, California>>(951) 587-3632, San Jose, California 95124>>(408) 377-1710, Fax: (408) 377-1710 After prompting by "outgoing message", press *51, and then hit your "send fax" button.

email: paul@wilsondesigns.net

http://www.wilsondesigns.net