Re: [CR]Re: When is a restoration not a restoration?


Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 17:25:26 +0000 (GMT)
From: gholl@optonline.net
Subject: Re: [CR]Re: When is a restoration not a restoration?
In-reply-to: <e46785aa14a1.466ed691@optonline.net>
To: gholl@optonline.net
References: <20070612.085259.12159.0@webmail16.lax.untd.com>
cc: Classic Rendezvous <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>


----- Original Message -----
From:
Date: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 1:23 pm
Subject: Re: [CR]Re: When is a restoration not a restoration?
To: "brianbaylis@juno.com" ,


> Brian: In some sense your concerns regarding the movement of

\r?\n> collectable bikes into private collections ( especially foreign

\r?\n> collections) is quite legitimate. Any collectable that moves

\r?\n> into a private collection is not necessarily going to be

\r?\n> appreciated directly by other collectors. That's why

\r?\n> exhibitions, etc. are such a good thing. I thought (not

\r?\n> everybody agrees) that a guide would also be helpful to form a

\r?\n> reference for bikes that might not be seen so soon again, if at

\r?\n> all. Some collectors objected to the inclusion of price in such

\r?\n> a guide.

\r?\n> But, in my opinion, concerns regarding auctions and movement of

\r?\n> collectables, including vintage bikes, probably are slightly

\r?\n> misplaced. For all I can see, auctions, eBay auctions in

\r?\n> particular, are probably causing a movement of European bikes

\r?\n> into the USA! Some countries prohibit objects they regard as

\r?\n> patrimony from being sent out of their country. I for one would

\r?\n> hate to see Italy adopt such a policy toward their vintage bikes!

\r?\n> I think the net effect of auctions is to distribute objects into

\r?\n> the hands of new collectors and, sometimes, to other countries.

\r?\n> A guide to vintage steel bikes would help everyone and in many ways.

\r?\n> George Hollenberg MD

\r?\n> Westport, CT, USA

\r?\n>

\r?\n>

\r?\n> ----- Original Message -----

\r?\n> From: "brianbaylis@juno.com"

\r?\n> Date: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 11:55 am

\r?\n> Subject: Re: [CR]Re: When is a restoration not a restoration?

\r?\n> To: sirkevinwulf@ozemail.com.au

\r?\n> Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org

\r?\n>

\r?\n> >

\r?\n> > Jeff,

\r?\n> >

\r?\n> > Sorry for my general statement. I was referring to the

\r?\n> > situations in

\r?\n> >

\r?\n> > the past when certain things, French classic bikes in

\r?\n> > particular, were

\r?\n> >

\r?\n> > going to Japanese bidders who were offering REALLY high bids

\r?\n> for

\r?\n> > that

\r?\n> >

\r?\n> > sort of thing. The effect of that was that the eBay prices on

\r?\n> > the

\r?\n> >

\r?\n> > stuff got to be astronomical. In addition to that, once the

\r?\n> > bikes and

\r?\n> >

\r?\n> > parts went to Japan, us here in the states where the stuff was

\r?\n> > being

\r?\n> >

\r?\n> > auctioned, and where much of it spent it's service life, would

\r?\n> > not be

\r?\n> >

\r?\n> > seen by the collectors here at the shows and rides ever again.

\r?\n> >

\r?\n> > It seems that maybe that condition has lessened in recent

\r?\n> years;

\r?\n> > but I

\r?\n> >

\r?\n> > don't follow eBay very much. On account of eBay, many of the

\r?\n> > people

\r?\n> >

\r?\n> > have become familiar with others in the hobby and have taken

\r?\n> up

\r?\n> >

\r?\n> > dealing amongst themselves these days.

\r?\n> >

\r?\n> > No offense meant to any foreign country; not even Japan. I

\r?\n> would

\r?\n> >

\r?\n> > assume any owner interested in buying the stuff would give the

\r?\n> > objects

\r?\n> >

\r?\n> > a good home. But once the stuff leaves, it rarely comes back

\r?\n> to

\r?\n> > the

\r?\n> >

\r?\n> > States and we hardly never see the stuff in the collections.

\r?\n> >

\r?\n> > Brian Baylis

\r?\n> > La Mesa, CA

\r?\n> >

\r?\n> > -- Jeff wrote:

\r?\n> > Brian,

\r?\n> >

\r?\n> > I agree with almost everything you say. "The "opinions" vary

\r?\n> >

\r?\n> > widely

\r?\n> >

\r?\n> > amongst all of us" - couldn't agree more! Most times I see a

\r?\n> CR

\r?\n> > post

\r?\n> >

\r?\n> > talking about the high price an item got on eBay, I'm thinking

\r?\n> > "Gee,

\r?\n> >

\r?\n> > that

\r?\n> >

\r?\n> > doesn't sound too outrageous". There's a downside to all this

\r?\n> > sun and

\r?\n> >

\r?\n> > surf

\r?\n> >

\r?\n> > and whatnot in Australia..... Anyway, I'm not too sure about

\r?\n> > this

\r?\n> >

\r?\n> > though:

\r?\n> >

\r?\n> > "Finding the right home for the bike is more important to the

\r?\n> > people

\r?\n> >

\r?\n> > who

\r?\n> >

\r?\n> > really care about these bikes. If the highest bidder gets the

\r?\n> > stuff,

\r?\n> >

\r?\n> > much

\r?\n> >

\r?\n> > of the important bikes and parts will leave the US forever".

\r?\n> >

\r?\n> > Many/most of the bikes owned by CR members were built in

\r?\n> >

\r?\n> > countries

\r?\n> >

\r?\n> > other than the US. Many Italians, Brits, French and even

\r?\n> Aussies

\r?\n> >

\r?\n> > might

\r?\n> >

\r?\n> > have a thing or two to say about how these bikes ended up in

\r?\n> the

\r?\n> > US in

\r?\n> >

\r?\n> > the

\r?\n> >

\r?\n> > first place (highest bidders??). Are we foreigners incapable

\r?\n> of

\r?\n> >

\r?\n> > providing

\r?\n> >

\r?\n> > a good home? Oh well, perhaps I am just hoping that more nice

\r?\n> >

\r?\n> > bikes/parts

\r?\n> >

\r?\n> > are to be found in Australia at some point!!

\r?\n> >

\r?\n> > Wishing I could go to Cirque....

\r?\n> >

\r?\n> > Best,

\r?\n> > Jeff

\r?\n> > Melb, Australia

\r?\n> >

\r?\n> >

\r?\n> >

\r?\n> >

\r?\n> >

\r?\n> >

\r?\n> > > Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 13:19:52 GMT

\r?\n> > > From: "brianbaylis@juno.com"

\r?\n> > > To: romeug@comcast.net

\r?\n> > > Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org

\r?\n> > > Cc: classicrendezvous-bounces@bikelist.org

\r?\n> > > Subject: Re: [CR]When is a restoration not a restoration?

\r?\n> > > Message-ID: <20070607.061952.18731.0@webmail08.lax.untd.com>

\r?\n> > > Content-Type: text/plain

\r?\n> > > MIME-Version: 1.0

\r?\n> > > Precedence: list

\r?\n> > > Message: 1

\r?\n> > >

\r?\n> > >

\r?\n> > > Gabriel,

\r?\n> > >

\r?\n> > > I'm with you. Just to begin with, the logistics of getting people

\r?\n> > >

\r?\n> > > together to communicate on the issues, of which there will be

\r?\n> > >

\r?\n> > > thousands, and the opinions of each person, are already next to

\r?\n> > >

\r?\n> > > impossible. The "opinions" vary widely amongst all of us.

\r?\n> Who

\r?\n> > is

\r?\n> >

\r?\n> > going

\r?\n> > >

\r?\n> > > to "win" the debates? The values, once established, will be

\r?\n> obsolete> >

\r?\n> > > next week.

\r?\n> > >

\r?\n> > > I have way more than enough work to do for the rest of my life.

\r?\n> > >

\r?\n> > > Honestly, I need time for my other hobbies of playing drums

\r?\n> in surf

\r?\n> > >

\r?\n> > > and oldies bands, making handmade knives, and making gas

\r?\n> > powered air

\r?\n> > >

\r?\n> > > guns. Now I have a 1957 Lambretta to restore; and I can

\r?\n> > already tell

\r?\n> > >

\r?\n> > > this won't be the last one.

\r?\n> > >

\r?\n> > >

\r?\n> > >

\r?\n> > > I'm not certain the next generation will have the same

\r?\n> appreciation> >

\r?\n> > > that we have for these bikes. Until "we" came along, most of

\r?\n> > the

\r?\n> >

\r?\n> > stuff

\r?\n> > >

\r?\n> > > was tossed in the landfill or abused to death by the

\r?\n> original

\r?\n> > owners,>

\r?\n> > > who used them for what they were meant for. The enjoyment of

\r?\n> riding> >

\r?\n> > > them. It's our generation who sort of cares because they are

\r?\n> > the

\r?\n> >

\r?\n> > bikes

\r?\n> > >

\r?\n> > > that we either owned or wanted to own when we were younger.

\r?\n> I

\r?\n> > sort of

\r?\n> > >

\r?\n> > > doubt that there will be too many classic bikes collectors

\r?\n> in

\r?\n> > 50

\r?\n> >

\r?\n> > years.

\r?\n> > >

\r?\n> > > Sure, my knowledge and that of many others here is of

\r?\n> > importance to

\r?\n> > >

\r?\n> > > us. And would be important to others in the future as well.

\r?\n> > But we

\r?\n> > >

\r?\n> > > seem to be doing fine just the way we are. Furthermore, many

\r?\n> > of us

\r?\n> > >

\r?\n> > > sell or trade stuff amongst ourselves and the money involved

\r?\n> > is not

\r?\n> > >

\r?\n> > > the primary issue. Finding the right home for the bike is more

\r?\n> > >

\r?\n> > > important to the people who really care about these bikes.

\r?\n> If the

\r?\n> > >

\r?\n> > > highest bidder gets the stuff, much of the important bikes

\r?\n> and parts

\r?\n> > >

\r?\n> > > will leave the US forever. Parting out bikes will be the most

\r?\n> > >

\r?\n> > > profitable way to off an exotic piece; and no one in their

\r?\n> > right mind

\r?\n> > >

\r?\n> > > would do that for the money. And yet it happens still; by

\r?\n> > people who

\r?\n> > >

\r?\n> > > collect bikes for profit. Forget profit and respect the surviving

\r?\n> > >

\r?\n> > > bikes, give them good homes, and ride them whenever possible.

\r?\n> > >

\r?\n> > > I suspect you (George) will become comfortable with the

\r?\n> system

\r?\n> > the

\r?\n> >

\r?\n> > way

\r?\n> > >

\r?\n> > > it is as time goes on. Encouraging the value study will do

\r?\n> > harm to

\r?\n> >

\r?\n> > the

\r?\n> > >

\r?\n> > > hobby in my opinion, just as Gabriel has mentioned. Let it

\r?\n> be.

\r?\n> > Save

\r?\n> >

\r?\n> > us

\r?\n> > >

\r?\n> > > all a lot of work and arguing. Ride and enjoy the bikes for

\r?\n> > what they

\r?\n> > >

\r?\n> > > are.

\r?\n> > >

\r?\n> > > Brian Baylis

\r?\n> > > La Mesa, CA

\r?\n> > > Still looking for the valve caps with the matching serial

\r?\n> > numbers to

\r?\n> > >

\r?\n> > > complete my 1968 Ollie Ozone bike. I can not rest until I

\r?\n> find

\r?\n> > ALL

\r?\n> >

\r?\n> > the

\r?\n> > >

\r?\n> > > correct original parts. ;-)