the "authenticity" of a marque boils down to case-by-case nitpicking, really :) and theres *definitely* no comparision to the motobecane/mercier example you bring up.
bentley, bugatti, aston martin - even bianchi, were talking a different issue entirely - companies of that size cant really be fairly compared to an endeavour the size of herses original shop, or this new venture. of course, id also venture to say that current bianchis are indeed authentic, as there is a verifiable, traceable, "evolutionary" tree of the business from eduardos days on down to the present...
if nobillete had built frames with lyli herses husband, youd be looking at a different opinion from me on this. but again, case-by-case nitpicking :)
the "authenticity" of this new rene herse venture will surely be endlessly debated - and its interesting insight into our various takes on the hobby, much as the original/restoration discussion is - it sheds light on the deeper attachments we have to the non-quantifiable aspects of the bikes we love...
-joel
At 13:07 -0700 06.17.2007, Jerome & Elizabeth Moos wrote:
>Well, I suppose the same argument could be made
>against the New Bates, or Claud Butler, after
>Claud was no longer involved. Or Bianchi-made
>Legnanos, or even Bianchi, as I'm sure no one
>now at Bianchi ever met Eduoardo. What makes a
>marque "authenic" can be debated forever. But I
>think there is a world of difference between
>what Mike and Mark are trying to achieve and the
>venture by former principals of the infamous
>World Cycles to slap the Motobecane and Mercier
>names on cheap Chinese-made TIGed frames. The
>new Bugattis, Bentleys and Aston Martins have
>very little connection to the originals in terms
>of the persons involved, but I'd be happy to own
>any of the new ones.
>
>joel metz <magpie@blackbirdsf.org> wrote:
>
>i think this highlights my "issue" with the idea...
>
>theres a *direct* lineage of framebuilding
>knowledge being passed on from alex singer, to
>ernest csuka, to his son olivier.
>
>even with the blessing of lyli herse and her
>husband, the last person to build under the herse
>name, who was trained under rene himself (and
>whose name i am regrettably forgetting this
>morning), there is a disconnect here. nobillete,
>regardless of his own immense talent, and
>regardless of mike kones knowledge of the herse
>bicycles, has no direct connection to the herse
>framebuilding legacy.
>
>as i was typing in a response to another post on
>this thread, which i now include here:
>
>-----
>
>with all due respect myself to the knowledge,
>experience, capabilities and intentions of mike
>and mark, i have to say im a bit befuddled by
>this, just as i am with any resurrection of a
>framebuilders name when theres no direct lineage
>(ie apprentice taking over the shop/name etc etc)
>does for me - theres a disconnect which blanks
>out the meaning of the name for me, regardless of
>the capabilities of the person building the bike.
>
>is there anything that could possibly be added to
>the near-mythic reputation of the herse name?
>
>i could see myself (if i had the money!) wanting
>a nobillete-built bike built in the tradition and
>style of a rene herse, even an exact, or a
>near-exact copy! but as soon as the name "rene
>herse" is pasted on the downtube instead of the
>name of the actual builder, my interest drops to
>zero. that may be just me and my own picky
>(double? :) ) standards, but id rather have a
>nobillete original rather than a herse copy - and
>i daresay that to me, ill always see a herse copy
>in this situation before i see a nobillete
>original, which is a shame, but a reality.
>
>i wish mike and mark the absolute best with this
>venture, and from reaction on the list (and
>knowing the talents theyre bringing to the
>table!), it looks like theyre off to a great
>start, but i remain befuddled.
>
>-----
>
>with all due respect - to _me_, a 2007
>csuka-built alex singer is absolutely an alex
>singer, but a nobilette-built rene herse will
>never, no matter how exact a copy, how
>beautifully made, or how wonderfully it rides, be
>a rene herse. it will surely be a fantastic bike,
>worth every penny, and worthy to follow in the
>footsteps of rene herse... just not a rene herse.
>its a technicality, a bit of semantic
>nit-picking, even a double standard, but its just
>my take on it.
>
>-joel
>
>At 09:42 -0700 06.17.2007, Jerome & Elizabeth Moos wrote:
>>If this is going ahead with the blessing of Lily
>>Herse, is it really so different than Ernest
>>Csuka building Singers? Granted, Csuka is a
>>member of the family, at least by mariage, and
>>presumably was taught by the founder, but Mike
>>is a long-time devotee and student of Herse
>>bikes, and Mark is a great and in many ways
>>traditional builder, so I think these will
>>perhaps be as "authentic" as a 2007 Alex Singer.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Jerry Moos
>> Big Spring, TX
>>
>>hersefan@comcast.net wrote:
>> Interesting question!
>>
>>The "classic" Rene Herse bicycles were a
>>benchmark, and the reference against which all
>>touring and randonneuring bicycles were
>>compared. In considering the production of
>>bicycles of this type, it became apparent to me
>>that in many ways the Herse designs remained the
>>best. Consider front racks. You can add curves
>>and more tubes and modify the shape, but the
>>typical Herse rack of the 1950's is really
>>difficult to improve upon.
>>
>>So if I wanted to make the best bike possible,
>>and it looked so much like an Herse - why not
>>make an Herse? And since Lily Herse wanted the
>>tradition continued, and since Mark Nobilette is
>>so close geographically, the project fell right
>>into place.
>>
>>In building Herse bikes, it becomes necessary to
>>build to an extremely high level to insure that
>>comparisons made to the "classic" Herse bikes
>>are favorable. And in building and Herse, since
>>Herse was an innovator, it gives licence to
>>pursue improvments which are truely useful and
>>which aid performance.
>>
>>So some have considered the Herse name to be a
>>burden - while myself and Mark consider it a
>>driver to push the bicycles to the highest level
>>possible so that when comparisions are made,
>>which will be welcomed, they are determained to
>>be a proud continuation of the line.
>>
>>I hope that helps!
>>
>>Mike Kone
>>President
>>Rene Herse Bicycles Inc.
>>
>>
>>
>>-------------- Original message --------------
>>From: gabriel l romeu
>>
>>> I have great respect for both Mike Kone and Mark Nobilette's bikes, but
>>> i am at a loss to understand this venture.
>>> at the onset, it invites comparison to the originals, whether good or
>>> bad i can't fathom why one would want this.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> inquiring minds want to know....gabriel
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Bingham, Wayne wrote:
>>> > Yes, it is Mark Nobilette, and I think that is a great "fit" for this
>>> > venture. I don't think the endeavor has fully gelled yet, and I'm sur
e
>>>
>>> > Mike will elaborate as things start to come together.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> gabriel l romeu
>>> chesterfield nj usa,
>>> but will soon be heading to the great NW, BC
>>> ± http://studiofurniture.com Ø http://journalphoto.org ±
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Classicrendezvous mailing list
>>> Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
>>> http://www.bikelist.org/
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>
>
>--
>joel metz : magpie@blackbirdsf.org : http://www.blackbirdsf.org/
>bike messengers worldwide : ifbma : http://www.messengers.org/
>magpie messenger collective http://www.magpiemessenger.com/
>portland, oregon
>==
>i know what innocence looks like - and it wasn't there,
>after she got that bicycle...
>_______________________________________________
--
joel metz : magpie@blackbirdsf.org : http://www.blackbirdsf.org/
bike messengers worldwide : ifbma : http://www.messengers.org/
magpie messenger collective http://www.magpiemessenger.com/
portland, oregon
==
i know what innocence looks like - and it wasn't there,
after she got that bicycle...