Harvey, perhaps the yarn you refer to was involving an Ephgrave No. 1 frame I bought from Peter Naiman that he had bought from Mike Kone. It had obviouslyly been repainted as it has some brazeons that only became available after Les's death. So the debate was whether the bike was a fake, or authentic, albeit updated. After Peter had acquired it, someone at Cirque expressed the opinion that it was a fake. Mike then offered to buy it back from Peter, but Peter, evidently believing it was genuine, chose to keep it and eventually sold it to me. The issue was never really resolved, as some very knowledgeable CR members still maintain it is a fake, while an approximately equal number of equally knowledgeable CR members maintain it is genuine. Personally, I rather enjoy the controversy this created. Everyone involved conceded that if this was a fake, it was an exceedingly high quality one, and thus was probably worth the price I paid, genuine or not. I've even considered entering it in the "Best Fake British" category at Cirque or Larz.
Jerry Moos Big Spring, TX
Harvey Sachs <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote: Fortunately, it's a big world, with lots of options. There are still a few (15 - 20?) Hetchins made today under license; and a few Bates as well. Their owners presumably know they are buying, and presumably are happy. Some very well-known builders have done work both under their own names and "factory" brands like Rivendell; this is a business, not just the pursuit of virtue. :-)
And I do remember seeing at Cirque some years ago a tremendous effort to unmask a fake something-or-other-British-classic, on which humongous effort had been taken. Someone, please bring that yarn back to us...
I think Joel is saying that he prefers the "Toei" approach to recreating great touring bikes. I just think that there's room for many different approaches, and I like what Mike has said about this effort: limited, faithful, and with blessings and feedback from the Herse's.
but, I really liked the over-the-topness of the Bilenky "Magnum Bogus" at this year's Cirque, and its prominent BB display of the model name. A fantastic baroque (art deco?) put-on, even if not my personal taste.
harvey sachs mcLean VA
Joel Metz wrote:
i think this highlights my "issue" with the idea...
theres a *direct* lineage of framebuilding knowledge being passed on from alex singer, to ernest csuka, to his son olivier.
even with the blessing of lyli herse and her husband, the last person to build under the herse name, who was trained under rene himself (and whose name i am regrettably forgetting this morning), there is a disconnect here. nobillete, regardless of his own immense talent, and regardless of mike kones knowledge of the herse bicycles, has no direct connection to the herse framebuilding legacy.
as i was typing in a response to another post on this thread, which i now include here:
with all due respect myself to the knowledge, experience, capabilities and intentions of mike and mark, i have to say im a bit befuddled by this, just as i am with any resurrection of a framebuilders name when theres no direct lineage (ie apprentice taking over the shop/name etc etc) does for me - theres a disconnect which blanks out the meaning of the name for me, regardless of the capabilities of the person building the bike.
is there anything that could possibly be added to the near-mythic reputation of the herse name?
i could see myself (if i had the money!) wanting a nobillete-built bike built in the tradition and style of a rene herse, even an exact, or a near-exact copy! but as soon as the name "rene herse" is pasted on the downtube instead of the name of the actual builder, my interest drops to zero. that may be just me and my own picky (double? :) ) standards, but id rather have a nobillete original rather than a herse copy - and i daresay that to me, ill always see a herse copy in this situation before i see a nobillete original, which is a shame, but a reality.
i wish mike and mark the absolute best with this venture, and from reaction on the list (and knowing the talents theyre bringing to the table!), it looks like theyre off to a great start, but i remain befuddled.