RE: [CR]Can You Identify? A Contest For CR List "COG-KNOW-scenti"

(Example: Framebuilders:Cecil Behringer)

In-Reply-To: <BAY109-F4084607F0072F5B59F490B9CD60@phx.gbl>
From: "R.S. Broderick" <>
Subject: RE: [CR]Can You Identify? A Contest For CR List "COG-KNOW-scenti"
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 21:55:15 -0500

Ladies and gentlemen, we have ourselves a winn-ah....

Yes, indeed, the entire lot of "Mystery Cogs" is now winging its way westward courtesy of the USPS Priority Mail service. From henceforth and forever, David Snyder of Auburn, California shall be known to one and all who haunt this hallowed forum as an official "COG-KNOW-scenti" in good standing - he having correctly identified the manufacturer and model of those cog wheels as being apropos a SunTour Microlite freewheel. A hardy congratulations and a tip of my hat to you kind sir for being able to render a definitive reply in but a mere one hour and nine minutes from that point in time at which the original question of their origin was posted to the CR List membership at large.

And now for the post mortem....

Many an individual were quick to posit that the lot of "Mystery Cogs" were likely of SunTour origin. However, there were mixed opinions thereafter as to whether respondents thought that they might be suitable for use on an original Winner freewheel body versus a New Winner or perhaps even a later Microlite freewheel. Of course, not having a Winner, a New Winner, or a Microlite freewheel at hand such that I could make an actual comparison for myself (...although I have at one time or another in the past owned a Winner and New Winner but never a Microlite), this is what I managed to compile given both a quick review of those SunTour catalogs that I have in my collection (...years 1973, 1975, 1977, 1978, 1981, 1987, 1988, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1996, and 1998 plus other various pieces of dealer literature - gee, guess who needs to do a bit more scanning and posting to WoolJersey?) as well as helpful comments from those wise souls who took time to thoughtfully participate in the "COG-KNOW-scenti" contest:

1) The original Winner / Winner-S freewheel introduced in 1975 used a combination of two eight notch slip fit cogs and three threaded cogs, assuming a five speed configuration. With respect to those cogs which are slip fit, the steel versions are NOT of a polyvalent design, but rather, have a flat profile and use separate spacer rings for purposes of achieving proper separation. Alloy versions of same were polyvalent and did not use spacers - just like the ones seen among the grouping I presented for consideration in the "COG-KNOW-scenti" contest. Inasmuch as the early Winner / Winner-S freewheel body itself featured a stepped profile, the remaining threaded cogs used two different sizings - one "mid-sized" to accommodate the middle gears and another "small-sized" to accommodate the final outer cog (...which was duplexed in a six speed configuration).

2) The later New Winner freewheel also used a combination of slip fit and threaded individual cogs of a generally similar design to those seen in the original Winner / Winner-S. However, those cogs which were slip fit used a four notch interface in common with SunTour's Pro-Compe and Perfect series. In addition, the New Winner freewheel body eliminated the intermediate threaded step in favor of a single threading for all remaining cogs.

3) The Microlite freewheel was built around an unique for SunTour at that time alloy body having CR-MO steel precision ground ball races and was available in either a six or seven speed configuration. It too used a combination of slip fit and individually threaded cogs, however, in this case the "anodized super duralumin" cogs were always of a polyvalent design which obviated the need for separate spacer rings (...steel cogs never being an option on a Microlite - duh). These cogs also used an eight notch interface similar to the Winner / Winner-S freewheel. But unlike the original Winner / Winner-S, the Microlite had no intermediate threaded step (...just like the New Winner) as it used only a single threading size for those cogs which were actually threaded.

Given that there was absolutely no differentiation or graduation in thread sizing exhibited among the wide variation (...14 through 19 tooth) of cogs offered as part of the "COG-KNOW-scenti" contest, it logically follows that they were not intended for use with the early Winner / Winner-S freewheel with its stepped body design. And in consideration of the fact that the larger editions of those very same cogs all used an eight notch interference interface, they could not have been intended specifically for use with the second edition or New Winner freewheel which used a four notch interface. And that leaves the SunTour Microlite freewheel as the only remaining alternative for which ALL of those cogs would be perfectly suitable.

In a noble attempt to address a couple as of yet unanswered questions, not only to sate my own personal sense of curiosity but also for the benefit of all others who may eventually search the CR List archives seeking these very bits of arcane information, I would now like to solicit yet further input from the collective wealth of experience embodied in the general CR List membership:

1) Can someone out there answer with authority the question of whether or not the larger eight notch slip fit cogs produced specifically for use in conjunction with a SunTour Microlite freewheel will also work on the original Winner / Winner-S model in the one and two inside cog positions ( I strongly suspect may be the case)? Information presented on page 4-14 of my Sutherland's Third edition having the corrective supplement issued August 1985 would seem to indicate that this is a conditional possibility, but I am looking for a "real world" confirmation one way or the other from someone who perhaps used to wrench at a shop and has first hand experience with this exact type of substitution.

2) While it is understood that the remaining threaded cogs from a Microlite could in no way could be used to "complete" a Winner / Winner-S freewheel to the extent that the latter's stepped body design precludes such a possibility, does anyone know whether the respective threadings themselves are wholly unique from those two earlier versions of freewheels or whether threaded Microlight cogs might be able to fit onto either the middle or outer threaded position of a Winner / Winner-S freewheel or even onto a New Winner freewheel? Again, the aforementioned Sutherland's manual is less than obvious on the matter, although it would appear to suggest limited compatibility under VERY specific circumstances. Again, input from an individual having actual experience in the matter would be greatly appreciated.

Anyone having helpful / useful information in this regard or who knows of any inaccuracies with respect to those descriptions provided above, is invited to share their input publicly as I would very much like to "get it right" for purposes of informational archiving.

Robert "seeking to cogitate on an incrementally higher plane" Broderick ...the "Frozen Flatlands" of South Dakota Sioux Falls, USA

>From: "R.S. Broderick" <>
>Subject: [CR]Can You Identify? A Contest For CR List "COG-KNOW-scenti"
>Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 12:49:01 -0500
>Not too long ago, I stumbled across a somewhat vague eBay auction listing
>for a group of brand new and unused alloy cog wheels. And while the
>descriptive text may have been minimalist, and the associated photograph
>was a tad out of focus, I could still clearly identify a few rather
>distinct characteristics which led me to conclude that these might well be
>cogs apropos a Zeus 2000 freewheel build - and I am always interested in
>procuring more virgin examples of these when the price is right. Indeed,
>the individual cogs being offered for sale were of a polyvalent design,
>they were said to be crafted from lightweight aluminum alloy, AND of most
>significance, the larger cogs used a slip fit interference interface having
>eight locating notches. Based upon these simple observations, I decided to
>tender a modest bid which turned out to be just enough to prevail in that
>Roughly one week later, I received in the mail a carefully packaged bounty
>of shiny new cog wheels. But whereas my original observations regarding
>their peculiar characteristics were proven to be accurate, my conclusion
>that they might be suitable for use with a Zeus 2000 freewheel body was
>not. At this point in time, I am left scratching my head trying to figure
>out just what freewheel application they would work with as it is obviously
>one with which I am not familiar. Having no use for this fine lot of cogs,
>and being unable to accurately identify their proper application such that
>I might offer them for sale once again on eBay in some meaningful fashion,
>I have instead decided to have a bit of fun with them, while at the same
>time, perhaps learning of their true origins courtesy of the vast wealth of
>knowledge represented herein by the august and esteemed membership of the
>CR List.
>So, here is the deal....
>I have temporarily posted to WoolJersey a series of four pictures detailing
>various aspects of these cogs including comparisons with their very similar
>Zeus counterparts. You are both invited and encouraged to peruse same
>using the following convenient link:
>All told, the group of "Mystery Cogs" consists of no less than twenty-two
>individual examples - one 14 tooth threaded, four 15 tooth threaded, four
>sixteen tooth threaded, three 17 tooth threaded, two 18 tooth threaded, two
>18 tooth slip-fit, one nineteen tooth slip-fit, two 20 tooth slip-fit, one
>22 tooth slip-fit, and two 23 tooth slip-fit. Review the photographs.
>Consider the relevant details. And then, offer either your "best guess" or
>your "I am absolutely positive that I know what these darn things are"
>conclusion as to just what manufacturer make and type of freewheel these
>cogs are intended for use in conjunction with. The first person to
>"correctly" identify their proper application wins not only the highly
>coveted title of CR List "COG-KNOW-scenti" in good standing and all of its
>attendant accolades but also the entire group of brand new and unused
>aluminum alloy polyvalent cogs themselves to do with as they please.
>OFFICIAL RULES: No purchase necessary - nor is it even possible. Void
>where prohibited, licensed, taxed, or otherwise restricted by time and/or
>interest. Entries should be submitted directly to my public email address
>of (....notice please that "mail" is not spelled with an
>"E") and NOT to the CR List itself lest you risk the wrath of Dale for
>wasting valuable bandwidth. Limited to only one entry per person unless
>you have been certifiably diagnosed with schizophrenia, in which case you
>may only enter once for each of your known multiple personalities. In the
>event that there is no "decisive" proof forthcoming as to the actual
>origins of the cog wheels in question, the "official winner" will be
>determined by a preponderance of similar guesses submitted for
>consideration. Winner to be announced with great fanfare and hullabaloo at
>a time of my choosing sometime during the day of Monday, August 27th, 2007.
> Entries which are mutilated, altered, incomplete, tampered with,
>illegible, inaccurate, forged, irregular in any way, insulting, profane,
>argumentative, vague, vapid, vacuous, vitriolic, venial, vulgar, or
>otherwise not in compliance with my own somewhat whimsical wishes will be
>considered, you guessed it, VOID. Good luck....
>Robert "why won't Ed McMahon just leave me alone?" Broderick
>...the "Frozen Flatlands" of South Dakota
>Sioux Falls, USA
>See what you’re getting into…before you go there

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