In general I would agree with Jan's main point that frames made in house have better quality control than when they are outsourced. An example of this is when I visited the frame shop of Pogliaghli in Milan in 1977. There were like 4 or 5 workers that the boss - whose name was on the down tube - kept a close eye on while they worked. He was my pick of the Milan builders for this reason. It was a friendly visit but turned less so when further questions (where no one spoke the other's language) revealed I was an American that learned framebuilding in England rather than I was a framebuilder from England like they originally thought. Oops.
I am most interested in Jan's note about Herse frames: "They did subcontract... even the filing of frames, but that is a different story." That is a story I'd really like to hear. As a framebuilder, I consider good filing to be more difficult than brazing and certainly more time consuming (painting requiring the greatest skill of all. Which makes it kind of strange that these craftsmen aren't usually recognized. I say this as I'm painting a student's frame :). What separates a great frame from a good one is using a file to take care of little details. This is time spent that reflects the builder's pride that he won't be paid more to do better. If I could be cloned to work in my own shop, I'd want my new self to be a filer. That would be the best way to increase production and keep the same quality.
I should also say that I have been in both Hetchins' workshop when he had moved to South-end-on-Sea and Masi's under the velodrome. That's a story for another post since the time I needed to wait between paint coats has been long enough.
Doug Fattic Niles, Michigan USA
On 9/19/07 11:32 PM, "Jan Heine" <heine94@earthlink.net> wrote:
> At 5:36 PM -0400 9/19/07, Doug Fattic wrote:
>> There is a reason Masi, Hetchins and Herse
>> used contract builders. We don't remember those builders who built similar
>> products quality in smaller numbers.
>
> I do not know about Masi, but Herse made all their frames in-house,
> as far as I know. They did employ framebuilders, but they did not
> subcontract the work out to others. (They did subcontract
> machine-shop work and even the filing of frames, but that is a
> different story.) From what I gather about Hetchins - see the history
> of the maker in Bicycle Quarterly Vol. 5, No. 4 - it was the same for
> Hetchins.
>
> Other French builders, like Goeland, did subcontract frames. There
> were many specialists in France who did nothing but make frames for
> various makers.
>
> It may be a small distinction, but I feel that you have better
> control over the quality and design if the frames are made in your
> shop, by your employees, rather than by a contract builder who builds
> a series of "x" brand frames one day and "y" brand frames the next.
> Of course, some of the subcontractors did excellent work, too.
>
> Jan Heine
> Editor
> Bicycle Quarterly
> 140 Lakeside Ave #C
> Seattle WA 98122
> http://www.bikequarterly.com