Roberto A. Clair wrote:
<< ...What i would give for a decent Shimano Dura Ace 7400 group today>>
Chaiman Dalr Replied:
Are we seeing the start of a new era?? Up till now, vintagesque folk yearned for 1st gen Dura Ace, Dura Ace AX, maybe bits of early Deore and Arabesque 600, but now ....7400????
I say:
Sure, I'll take 7400. It is off topic, of course, but since DALE mentioned it....
I think this was the first group that was clearly the equal of the Brand C offering of it's day. The original Ace has to be compared to early SR reduced, and I don't think it was at quite the same level. The Ace EX was nice, but not as nice as late-70's early 80's SR reduced, IMO. However, the 7400 group was at least as functional as the 1st gen C-Rec group that came out the next year. Nearly every part of the 1st C-rec group had some major flaw, as evidenced by the fact that nearly every part was modified to address these flaws within about two years, With Dura Ace 7400, relative to C-Rec, the only major drawback was that you couldn't use it with the era's racing standard of 7-speeds and still get indexing, but even in friction it provided good shifting. C-rec, on the other hand, didn't click shift properly until 1992, after Campy gave up trying to make a click shifter with a friction mode (Whereas Shimano's friction mode had always worked).
As the first modern indexed racing group 7400's introduction would have a lasting influence. Later versions of this same basic group popularized tons of features that would become, and generally still are, standard for brand S and brand C (and even that newer brand S, I suspect). To wit: 8-speed freewheels, return springs in brake levers, integrated shifting, ramped cogs, pinned chainwheels, dual pivot calipers. Of course, there are other innovations popularized by Shimano, through this group, that actually came earlier, such as cassette freewheels and two-pivot rear ders. We know that these were not Shimano inventions, and they were part of Shimano's approach before 7400, but it was that group that led to these features becoming the standard for racing, and left brand C playing catch-up (still?). The other items that Shimano in no way invented, but did popularize through the 7400 group, were the cartridge headset and BB. Unlike the two-pivot rear der and cassette, these items were introduced into Shimano's offereings during the 7400 era. When I consider all the now-standard features that were either invented or popularized by Shimano, through the 7400 group, I can't help buy see it as a VERY important group. Campy innovations of the era were few, and mostly they just doing countless knockoffs of Shimano features. And so here is the thing: I think in the big picture 7400 represents the moment when Shimano decided to do their Campy-fighter group in the Campy way. It was the backlash from AX. It was conservative, reliable, and VERY similar to SR reduced. The major differences were usually to the good, such as click shifting and the capacity for smaller chainrings. Other innovations did no harm, such as the trick brake lever with the clamp bolt accessible without disconnecting the cable, or the nice seals on all the bearings. At the same time, Campy was responding to the threat that wasn't. The C-Rec group was ironic in that it was playing off many Japanese "improvements" that were never well received. The overall appraoch was very "AX-ripoff" (compare the the hubs!) and had aspects of Suntour (pulley cage), yet one is left to wonder why. Did Campy really think AX was a threat? Riders, actual users, generally HATED it.
After getting a much bigger foot in the door with the conservative 7400 offering, Shimano got back to innovating, but by this time I really think they knew to take it slow, and innovate in concert with the teams that used their stuff. The parts continued to evolve slowly and reasonably. They were, in effect, the new Campy. Because most of the first type 7400 series parts were to change before too long, the very earliest stuff looks very collectible, at least to me. My guess is that the best way to get a lightly used 7400 group is to find one of the many mass-produced Cannondales or Treks that featured the group, many of which have probably been gathing dust since they day they were sold.
Tom Dalton Bethlehem, PA USA
re was just enough innovation, and those innovations were, in the case of click shifting and capacity for smaller rings a way that was fundametaa time of
Dale Brown Greensboro, North Carolina USA
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Today's Topics:
1. Latest find (Tim Fricker) 2. That ever recurring discussion of the 1983 cutoff date...a formal request presented (Tom Sanders) 3. Miyata 1000's Great Grandfather & Sam Fitzsimmons, Where Are You? (Daniel Dahlquist) 4. RE: Pre war handlebar diameter (Neil Foddering) 5. Test #3 (Andrew R Stewart) 6. Re: Latest find..Re: Proteus, correct Front Derailleur to go w Crane Rear 7. Early index shifting (Jan Heine) 8. RE: Pre war handlebar diameter (Sheldon Brown) 9. Re: Pre war handlebar diameter (Hilary Stone) 10. Re: 50 tooth 110 chainring sugino ta and a big thankyou 11. Bikes/frames for sale 12. Re: Pre war handlebar diameter (Sheldon Brown) 13. Bikes for sale with prices 14. Was: 1983 cutoff. Now Shimano actually collectible??? 15. Please change my email address to callt555@yahoo.com (T M)
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Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 09:56:19 -0400 From: "Tim Fricker" To: "Classic Rendezvous" Subject: [CR]Latest find Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 1
Well, temptation got the best of me again, gang... in the form of a 1975 Proteus! I saw the ad on Craig's List, thanks to the BOBish Bikes for Sale Yahoo group.... and went to look at it Wednesday evening. It's in need of some love, but it's a one-owner bike, and has been reasonably well cared for. Some sweat-induced surface rust on the top tube, and some other chips in the paint, and a total lack of decals, aside from the 531 decal, but it's straight and sound and has no dings in the tubes. The guy I bought it from said it was one of their more basic offerings... it was fit to him, but the finish work on the frame is pretty minimal. I'm not sure if that's more a reflection of it being an "early" Proteus, or just that it was more affordable. Anyway, yet another of my teenage longings finally fulfilled, decades later! Bike longings, that is!
Now the questions of what to do with it, in terms of set up, and restoration, etc. For the time being, I'm going to just treat the rust to stop it getting any worse, but one day I'll probably get it resprayed. The parts currently on it are good, but eclectic, and I'm not sure whether I want to change any of it or not. I am not totally up on the various period questions, so maybe folks here can help me identify what is appropriate and what is not. And maybe I'll just leave it as is for now, putting of any major changes until i get to the paint.
What it has:
Wheels are Campy Record Hi-flange, 120mm, 36 hole, 27" Rigida 1319 rims, some kind of thin, db spokes which I haven't looked closely at to identify brand. Wheels seem to be in good shape, no serious dings or anything. I'd rather they be 700, but in '75, clinchers, the 27s are "correct".
Stem is a SR, I think Royal, that has been milled and drilled, as so many parts were back then. Looks like a "local" job... it's not ugly, but it lacks finesse, if that makes sense. Lends a certain "funky 70s" look.
Bars are a mystery... they are a slightly odd shape, flared out with a tight radius to the hooks, if that makes sense. One side of the sleeve says "Japan" and "Champion", the other says "KB". Never heard of them.
Seat post is the SR copy of the Campy two bolt.
Crankset is the classic Mighty Compe with original rings, 42/52.
Brakes are old black Dura-Ace sidepulls, with silver Dura-Ace levers, with DiaCompe replacement hoods. I think these were not original, from what the seller said. I should check with him.
Derailleurs are a newish Dura Ace front (as in a couple of years old) and a black Crane rear. Not sure if the Crane is original or period correct, in black. Anyone?
SunTour Perfect 5 speed freewheel, 14-24.
Shifters are some clunky, cheap looking SunTours, not the powerratchet ones, and not likely to stay on the bike long. I'll probably put a set of SunTour barcons on instead.
Pedals are a Campy clone I'm not familiar with.. they say "Olympic 64" on the cages, black cage, silver body, quill style, with Christophe medium clips.
At some point I'll probably swap some things out, but I'm not sure how exactly I'd like to set it up. I'm contemplating going with Cyclone front and rear derailleurs, but were they around in '75 yet? Should I care? :-) Or stick with the Crane, and find the proper front... which would be what, exactly? Also toying with a) leaving the Mighty Compe on b) swapping it for a Mighty Tour with smaller inner ring c) swapping it with a '73 Dura Ace I have from a World Voyageur. Decisions, decisions.
I'm just happy to have found it, and in my size. Woo hoo! I grew up not that far from Proteus, back in their early days, and used to go there to dream a lot. Who knew that I would get one in my 40s? Kinda like that Paramount, and the Raleigh Pro, both of which I finally bought in the last couple of years.
Tim
-- Tim Fricker bikes@vienna, llc Vienna, VA, USA Recumbents, folders, tandems, commuters, etc.
http://spokesofawheel.blogspot.com/
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 09:59:37 -0400 From: "Tom Sanders" To: Subject: [CR]That ever recurring discussion of the 1983 cutoff date...a formal request presented Message-ID: <003301c8196a$c79aae10$56d00a30$@net> Content-Type: text/plain;charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 2
I have long argued that if we can have KOF bike makers we should have KOF component makers. Certainly the leading contender would be Campagnolo. While the C Record group might be OT, it sure is at the top of my favorite lists.
Apparently it is at the top of other's list, too, as shown by the current group on E-Bay that is at well over $2000 and still going strong. Item # 130165905488.
I would like to take this opportunity to formally request of the List Meister to reconsider whether C Record might be included in the list of very much on topic subjects.I feel it would add to the list and be of service to list members, who often write and ask questions of me that I am often unable to answer, but I know that List Members could surely add to our knowledge base.
Tom Sanders
Lansing, MI USA
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Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 09:02:36 -0500 From: "Daniel Dahlquist" To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: [CR]Miyata 1000's Great Grandfather & Sam Fitzsimmons, Where Are You? Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 3
Hello Group, I am not sure how off-topic I may be with this post, but I wanted to share my excitement in finding a 1930's-era Miyata rod-brake roadster. (This date is approximate, as the design was ubiquitous for decades). The bike is rusty, but more or less complete. The brass headbadge features the large "M" centered in the chainring we have long associated with the marque. Unfortunately, the fenders are missing. Sam Fitzsimmons, who has forgotten more about bicycles than I will ever know, saw this bike at the Memory Lane Swap Meet this past weekend, and told my friend that he may have some fenders for me. Does anyone know how I might contact Sam? Lastly, does anyone have a Miyata or period-correct Japanese leather saddle, coil spring or mattress style, that they would be willing to part with? Thanks in advance.
Daniel Dahlquist Galena, Illinois
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Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 14:03:37 +0000 From: Neil Foddering To: David Beck , Subject: RE: [CR]Pre war handlebar diameter Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <000901c818e0$954b9a80$650fa8c0@H3OLaptop> References: <000901c818e0$954b9a80$650fa8c0@H3OLaptop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 4
7/8" is the usual pre-war British bar diameter, often with a 15/16" ferrule .
Neil Foddering
Weymouth, Dorset, England
> From: db@h3odesign.com
> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 16:30:22 -0500
> Subject: [CR]Pre war handlebar diameter
>
> I checked the archives with no luck. Is there a typical diameter
> for a
> set of prewar bars? Or were they all over the place? Thank you.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> David Beck
>
> Crystal Lake, IL USA
>
>
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.12/1096 - Release Date:
> 10/27/2007
> 11:02 AM
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
_________________________________________________________________ 100s of Music vouchers to be won with MSN Music https://www.musicmashup.co.uk
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Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 10:22:51 -0400 From: "Andrew R Stewart" To: "Classic Rendezvous" Subject: [CR]Test #3 Message-ID: <2E161309202044E989B236563F6CC578@AndrewRStewaPC> Content-Type: text/plain;format=flowed;charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 5
This is test #3.
Andy Stewart Raleigh, NC ------------------------------
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 10:36:27 EDT From: TonyCampy@aol.com To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: Re: [CR]Latest find..Re: Proteus, correct Front Derailleur to go w Crane Rear Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 6
Tim, I bought a Schwinn World Voyageur from you a few months ago, a project nearing completion. They were spec'd with Shimano Crane GS rear derailleur and Shimano Titlist front. The Titlist seems like it would work well for your Proteus. Suntour Cyclone wasn't introduced until 1975, so they would be just slightly off for a 1973 bike. Thanks for all your Miyata One Thousand help on the MiyataSpecTour list!~ Best Regards,
Tony Winters in Center Moriches, NY USA
************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com
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Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 07:21:23 -0800 From: Jan Heine To: Larry Myers , classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: [CR]Early index shifting Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <743395.68442.qm@web55406.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <743395.68442.qm@web55406.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 7
At 9:47 PM -0700 10/27/07, Larry Myers wrote:
>BTW- just take a look through the 'Data Book' or 'The Dancing
>Chain'....you'll see many examples of vintage equipment that could
>be said to violate our set of rules- indexed shifting by Nivex &
>Cyclo,
Nivex and Cyclo were later developments (1920s and 1930s) and did not have index shifting. It was always the first derailleurs that had index shifting to persuade a reluctant group of cyclists that shifting really wasn't that hard. Once people were used to derailleurs, they were happy to use friction shifting.
So the first cyclotouring derailleur, the Le Chemineau (and the Funiculo a bit later), was indexed. The first racing derailleur that found widespread acceptance in the pro peloton (at least in France), the Osgear Super Champion, also had an indexing shift lever.
The arrival of index shifting in recent decades follows a similar pattern. It was mostly used to overcome the reluctance of casual cyclists to derailleur-equipped bikes.
We tested how these early derailleurs shifted on the road, and reported on that in the "Riding with Classic Derailleurs" articles in Bicycle Quarterly Vol. 4, No. 2 (Cyclotouring derailleurs like Cyclo, Funiculo, Nivex, Spirax, Huret Allvit, Duopar, Campagnolo Rally, etc.) and Vol. 4, No. 4 (racing derailleurs like Super Champion, Campagnolo Cambio Corsa, Gran Sport, Record, Simplex Tour de France, SLJ, Suntour, etc.).
Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly 140 Lakeside Ave #C Seattle WA 98122 http://www.bikequarterly.com ------------------------------
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 12:57:44 -0400 From: Sheldon Brown To: Neil Foddering , David Beck , Subject: RE: [CR]Pre war handlebar diameter Message-ID:
In-Reply-To: References: <000901c818e0$954b9a80$650fa8c0@H3OLaptop>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 8
Quoth Neil Foddering:
>7/8" is the usual pre-war British bar diameter, often with a 15/16" ferrule
Yes, though I wouldn't define this as a "pre-war" issue. Rather, it's a materials issue:
*British _steel_ bars are generally 7/8" (22.2 mm) with 15/16" (23.8 mm) centres.
*British _aluminium_ bars are generally 15/16" (23.8 mm) with 1" (25.4 mm) centres.
This applies regardless of the shape/bend of the bars.
Sheldon "Hiduminium" Brown +---------------------------------+ | Is ambivalence a bad thing? | | Well, yes and no. | | -- Garrison Keillor | +---------------------------------+ -- Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide http://captainbike.com Useful articles about bicycles and cycling http://sheldonbrown.com
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Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 18:17:47 +0000 From: Hilary Stone To: Sheldon Brown Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: Re: [CR]Pre war handlebar diameter Message-ID: <4724D24B.9030303@blueyonder.co.uk> In-Reply-To:
References: <000901c818e0$954b9a80$650fa8c0@H3OLaptop>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 9
This is not really true - pre-war Reynolds aluminium bars are 7/8in and so are most pre-war steel bars. Post war almost all aluminium bars are 15/16in. With steel bars it is not so clear - some are 7/8in and some 15/16in - GB are 15/16in with 25.4mm centres and there are certainly other steel bars similarily dimensioned too.
Hilary Stone, Bristol, England
Sheldon Brown wrote:
> Quoth Neil Foddering:
>
>> 7/8" is the usual pre-war British bar diameter, often with a 15/16"
>> ferrule
>
> Yes, though I wouldn't define this as a "pre-war" issue. Rather, it's a
> materials issue:
>
> *British _steel_ bars are generally 7/8" (22.2 mm) with 15/16" (23.8 mm)
> centres.
>
> *British _aluminium_ bars are generally 15/16" (23.8 mm) with 1" (25.4
> mm) centres.
>
> This applies regardless of the shape/bend of the bars.
>
> Sheldon "Hiduminium" Brown
> +---------------------------------+
> | Is ambivalence a bad thing? |
> | Well, yes and no. |
> | -- Garrison Keillor |
> +---------------------------------+
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 14:37:11 -0400 From: travis.harry@gmail.com To: Subject: Re: [CR]50 tooth 110 chainring sugino ta and a big thankyou Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <000401c81910$89f16950$0d02a8c0@PC175064711631> Precedence: list Reply-To: travis.harry@gmail.com Message: 10
-oOo-
I will change the current 52 T outer ring to a 50T ramped and pinned 3 Easy Questions: 1. is the modern Specilaized 50 T 110bcc the same as the Sugino 50"T 110? Are both ramped and pinned? ( i know Sugino made some cranks for specialized)
Someone with more bikes than I ride, including those of the modern era, might tell/remind us of the advantages of ramped and pinned chainwheels and the circumstances when those advantages obtain..
I think I push myself and sometimes ride hard, but haven't raced, ridden a triple, riden off-road, or had more than 8 cogs in back. And I use downtube or equal shifters. So, I don't know the advantages of ramps and pins, though I've assembled bikes with them.
Harry Travis DC USA ------------------------------
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 14:52:28 EDT From: Chuckdds@aol.com To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: [CR]Bikes/frames for sale Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 11
Hi all,
I am culling the herd and thought I would let the CR list have 1st shot. Email me offlist at _Chuckdds@aol.com_ (mailto:Chuckdds@aol.com) if interested in anything- photos available for those truly interested:
1. Batavus Professional ridden by Leontien Van Moorsel. Full C-Record 2. 1980 Bruce Gordon. equiped with NOS Gippiemme groupo 49c-t 3. Teledyne Titan fresh off the showroom floor, mix of components 53c-t
Chuck Schlesinger San Diego, CA
************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com
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Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 14:55:27 -0400 From: Sheldon Brown To: Hilary Stone Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: Re: [CR]Pre war handlebar diameter Message-ID:
In-Reply-To: <4724D24B.9030303@blueyonder.co.uk> References: <000901c818e0$954b9a80$650fa8c0@H3OLaptop>
<4724D24B.9030303@blueyonder.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 12
At 6:17 PM +0000 10/28/07, Hilary Stone wrote:
>This is not really true - pre-war Reynolds aluminium bars are 7/8in
>and so are most pre-war steel bars. Post war almost all aluminium
>bars are 15/16in. With steel bars it is not so clear - some are
>7/8in and some 15/16in - GB are 15/16in with 25.4mm centres and
>there are certainly other steel bars similarily dimensioned too.
>
>Hilary Stone, Bristol, England
Reynolds made aluminium bars?
=== message truncated ===
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