Re: [CR]Spoke and spoke count on old track iron... now track rims and Campy track hubs

(Example: Framebuilders:Cecil Behringer)

From: "ternst" <>
To: "George Allen" <>, <>
References: <> <004d01c86cdb$43bf5770$0200a8c0@D8XCLL51> <>
Subject: Re: [CR]Spoke and spoke count on old track iron... now track rims and Campy track hubs
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 15:00:53 -0800

Thanks, Kurt, for the better detail. I meant the shape and weight but take those things for granted sometimes don't go far enough assuming folks know that stuff. Most of the guys used the regular "road" rims on the tracks. That's really a misnomer, the flat sidewall making it better for braking surface. Guys even used the serrated sides on track wheels, whatever they had. It was more about weight and rigididity. The so called track specific rims were used more for pursuit and TT's. Guys tried the narrow rims but rolled tires under agressive riding. The out and out sprinters used the heaviest rims, so they wouldn't bend 'em in jumps,etc. or they'd be replacing rims every week. For regular riding, guys like to ride as light as they could so the wide light rims in 260/280 gm. were popular but care had to be taken to not lace so tight that flat spots were pulled into the rim. Also in a spill the really light rims broke into 4-5-6 pieces regularly. That's why the tie and solder was used to give the extra rigidity without needing super tight spokes. On the old rims the 20/21mm wide dome shaped rims had a nice base for the tires and really held the tires in place. Sprinters used the narrow 20 mm tires and slightly narrower rims for absolute speed on bigger tracks woith out worrying about rolling a tire, but the tires had to be shellacked really well and it was a lot of work. Regular road type rim cement was OK for general track racing with wider rims, but the track specific narrow rims were problematic in warm weather. As far as hubs go, the good machining that Campagnolo brought to the market made for better precision than the 3 piece hubs and once set up probably easier to quality control and stronger too. The oilers slowly were fazed out for cost and practicality, too many people over oiled and made a mess. Nice light grease in moderate quantity wasn't much of a penalty on friction and easier. But, some guys were very fastidious, used super light oil and watched very carefully to run light and on minimal quantity so it wouldn't run down the hub and spokes. Hope this answers some of your Q's, don't hesitate to ask if I forgot something. Maybe some of my comments will elicit other comments too, so the picture
gets more complete.
Ted Ernst
Palos Verdes Estates

----- Original Message -----
From: George Allen
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 10:45 AM
Subject: Re: [CR]Spoke and spoke count on old track iron... now track rims

and Campy track hubs

> Ted,
> I know there were track specific rims in the mid-1970's but were these
> used exclusively. Did track riders use light road rims as well i.e. Fiamme
> Ergals, Mavic Record du Monde de l'Heures. Also, what was the evolution of
> the Campy one-piece shell track hub. Was there an early "no-Record"
> variant as in the road hubs? Weren't there versions with oiler holes and
> clips and versions without? I'm looking to purchase or build up some
> mid-1970's track wheels and I'm trying to stay period correct. BTW, if
> anyone has a nice, appropriate track wheelset, I have lots to trade. Sorry
> to ask such stupid questions but we had/have no tracks around here and I'm
> building up my first track bike.
> Thanks as Always,
> George Allen
> Lexington, Ky
> ternst wrote:
>> Traditionally track bike riders usually used 36/36; 32/36 if lighter
>> guys; 36/40 if heavier guys; and occassionally a 32/40 but that was
>> usually on road and mostly in England.
>> First you have to differentiate "riding" on the track for exercise, or
>> racing type performance with jumps, standing starts, sprints, etc.
>> A MA2 rim is a clincher, and NOBODY road clinchers on the track years
>> ago. PERIOD!
>> The older clinchers were made with taper protectors (strips) and would
>> give an uneven response while riding because of the thick and thin of the
>> rubber.
>> A track tire is more even thickness in the strip so the control, feel ,
>> and response is more accurate for performance.
>> Only in these last few years are they letting people ride/race with
>> clinchers on the track as the clinchers have become higher pressure and
>> performance oriented.
>> Riders seek out the clinchers that are a rubber base and not silcone base
>> so they are not slippery on the banking.
>> Rolling around on a flat type cement or asphalt track is a big difference
>> than a steep board oval, so when I tell you this keep in mind where and
>> how you will ride.
>> The old MA2 is softer old technology material.
>> The new aero type rims and materials are far stiffer and stronger so you
>> can use less spokes and be plenty rigid.
>> Look at all the 3 & 4 spoke wheels of today.
>> If you will ride around for a regular paceline and training sessions
>> without cavorting about aggressively, then you can get away with 32 and
>> maybe even 28 spokes, but I would stick with 36 and 3 or 4 cross as good
>> general riding wheels for long lasting and trouble free riding.
>> Be careful on tire pressure selection, too. The older rims have to get
>> the right tires to hold the bead and have high pressure so they won't
>> blow off.
>> That's why the newer rims of standard cross sections and the matching
>> tires may be adviseable to look at before assembling MA2's
>> Get your retro look but remember safety and get performance, too.
>> Ted Ernst
>> Palos Verdes Estates
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bianca Pratorius"
>> <>
>> To: <>
>> Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 4:18 AM
>> Subject: [CR]Spoke and spoke count on old track iron
>>> The road bikes I own have either 32 or 36 small flange hubs with three
>>> cross and 14/15 double butted stainless steel spokes. I have never bent
>>> a rim on the roads I ride with a weight of 150 plus pounds. I have
>>> broken a spoke here or there but only on wheels that had straight gauge
>>> spokes and were built by someone other than myself.
>>> For an average rider like me using high flange hubs what would have been
>>> the recommended spoke count for a track bike used on the track ? Can I
>>> get away with a 32 spoke count and Dt 15/16 db spokes cross three ? Have
>>> the spokes improved sufficiently over older stuff that I can safely
>>> build up this kind of a light wheel for mostly track use ? I also plan
>>> to use Mavic MA 2 rims if I can still find them.
>>> Garth Libre in Miami Fl USA
>>> _______________________________________________
>> _______________________________________________
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