[CR]RE: Classicrendezvous Digest, Vol 63, Issue 15

This issue had me racing down to the basement to survey my fleet. While reading the post, I was thinking, I've seen many bikes with the slot go ing into the seat tube. My survey revealed a mix. While I think it's b oth asthetically and structurally superior to have it end in the lug, I don't see a real problem if it goes into the tube below it, provided it not TOO far, and you do drill or round out the bottom to eliminate the s tress riser. After all, your putting this big thick piece of aluminum i n there to strengthen the area.

Mark Hoffman Relaxed in balmy New Britain, CT USA

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eCVrXForM9Mr98x6iu8Xt0Jm5U/

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Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 12:16:00 -0800 (PST) From: Jerome & Elizabeth Moos <jerrymoos@sbcglobal.net> To: John Wirt <frankensaab@earthlink.net>, "classicrendezvous@bikelist.org" <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> Subject: Re: [CR]Shimano 600 brakes on Miyata Message-ID: <395778.54206.qm@web82207.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <31427974.1204659411141.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.ea rthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: list Message: 3

This was common on some old sidepulls, including some Weinmann models, I be lieve. Maybe it was originally to accomodate the front lever on the right. I know this was popular on Italian bikes at one time, not sure about the rest of Europe or UK. But I've never found it a problem with the front lev er on the left. One just needs to use a bit different cable housing length and routing.

Regards,

Jerry Moos

Big Spring, TX

John Wirt <frankensaab@earthlink.net> wrote: All, This has been bugging me for a while and figured the list must know this on e... My wife's 1982 Miyata 912 has the full Shimano 600 "Arabesque" gruppo. The odd thing is that the brake calipers are "backwards"! The cables come i n from the left side as you look at them, rather than the right. If one routes the cables using the standard left hand/front brake, the cabl e bend gets a bit tight on the front brake. Should I find later calipers? Why is this?

john wirt boise, id USA _______________________________________________

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Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 15:16:31 -0500 From: marcus.e.helman@gm.com To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: [CR]Re: butchered De Rosa...rant, and a question Message-ID: <OFEE8B0A2C.D45E35A6-ON85257402.006EC5B1-85257402.006F60C4@gm.c om> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 4

Masi builders, Californian and Italian, were apparently more judicious in their slot work

http://www.wooljersey.com/gallery/mhelman1/2masis/100_0250.jpg.html?thumb Index=11

Best regards, Marcus Helman Huntington Woods, MI

At 04:41 AM 04/03/2008 -0800, MARK wrote:
>This issue had me racing down to the basement to survey my fleet. While reading the post, I was thinking, I've seen many bikes with the slot going into the seat tube. My survey revealed a mix. While I think it's both asthetically and structurally superior to have it end in the lug, I don't see a real problem if it goes into the tube below it, provided it not TOO far, and you do drill or round out the bottom to eliminate the stress riser. After all, your putting this big thick piece of aluminum in there to strengthen the area.
>

I did exactly the same! I only found one of my lugged bikes with the slot not cut beyond the bottom of the seat lug; it was the highest end bike I have, a Nishiki Ultimate. The others all had thicker lugs, which would not be as flexible. Since no picture of the De Rosa in question had been posted, I searched for one on wooljersey.com and saw a couple with a rather long point at the back of the seat lug that didn't appear to be sawn through. So I guess the jury would still be out on whether this particular one was "butchered" or not until we see a picture. But you're right, unless an undersize seatpost is used or the seat lug gets pried open, there's really no reason a crack should start at the bottom of this slot.

John Betmanis Woodstock, Ontario Canada

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Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 20:27:31 GMT From: "brianbaylis@juno.com" <brianbaylis@juno.com> To: marcus.e.helman@gm.com Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: Re: [CR]Re: butchered De Rosa...rant, and a question Message-ID: <20080304.122731.29880.7@webmail03.vgs.untd.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 5

Marcus,

The main difference is the choice of lugs. The Dubois Nervex lugs have a long tang on the back of the lug, just the way it comes from the factor y. Prugnuat and many other lugs had little material at the back of the l ug. Builders either have to add to the lug or live with it.

Part of framebuilding is choosing the right lugs or making them right be fore preceeding to build the frame.

Brian Baylis
La Mesa, CA

Masi builders, Californian and Italian, were apparently more judicious i n

their slot work

http://www.wooljersey.com/gallery/mhelman1/2masis/100_0250.jpg.html?th umbIndex=11

Best regards, Marcus Helman Huntington Woods, MI

At 04:41 AM 04/03/2008 -0800, MARK wrote:
>This issue had me racing down to the basement to survey my fleet. Whil e reading the post, I was thinking, I've seen many bikes with the slot goi ng into the seat tube. My survey revealed a mix. While I think it's both asthetically and structurally superior to have it end in the lug, I don' t see a real problem if it goes into the tube below it, provided it not TO O far, and you do drill or round out the bottom to eliminate the stress riser. After all, your putting this big thick piece of aluminum in ther e to strengthen the area.
>

I did exactly the same! I only found one of my lugged bikes with the slo t not cut beyond the bottom of the seat lug; it was the highest end bike I

have, a Nishiki Ultimate. The others all had thicker lugs, which would n ot be as flexible. Since no picture of the De Rosa in question had been posted, I searched for one on wooljersey.com and saw a couple with a

rather long point at the back of the seat lug that didn't appear to be sawn through. So I guess the jury would still be out on whether this particul ar one was "butchered" or not until we see a picture. But you're right,

unless an undersize seatpost is used or the seat lug gets pried open, there's really no reason a crack should start at the bottom of this slot.

John Betmanis Woodstock, Ontario Canada

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Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 13:34:05 -0700 From: "Mitch Harris" <mitch.harris@gmail.com> To: "Dale Brown" <oroboyz@aol.com> Cc: "CR List \(E-mail\)" <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> Subject: Re: [CR]KOF rules etc Message-ID: <8801bb250803041234i3b3e092bm1687d6e26dbba8da@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <8CA4C4918F93045-A60-14A6@WEBMAIL-DB13.sysops.aol.com> References: <MONKEYFOODAAIwplWdt0000291e@monkeyfood.nt.phred.org> <001c01c87e2d$3444eea0$6d726e58@DJN4ZQ0J> <8CA4C4918F93045-A60-14A6@WEBMAIL-DB13.sysops.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 6

The reason it makes sense to me is that there is no clear KOF rationale for components--is any Campagnolo OK before indexing? Is Superbe Pro ok since it's not following all the trends but staying N.R. traditional? Neither is persuasive. There just really isn't a strong KOF component line of reasoning.

Where you do see a KOF component made past 1984 such as a Super Record groups, TA Pro 5 Vis crank, or TA bottle cage, it's continued production of within timeline components. Someone could make an argument for KOF status if the Colorado venture produces new production ReneHerse cranks perhaps.

One could argue KOF status for something like Phil Wood hubs (even the cassette hub) which look substantially as they did within timeline even though they are different inside, but they are still largely continued production of within timeline stuff. Or I might consider any current production freewheel (or 144 bcd chainring) to be KOF since they allow continued operation of on topic bikes and components. But asking the list a question such as what current production freewheel is available for Record hubs is probably on topic anyway.

As for discussing any contemporary component that can be mounted on a KOF frame, that doesn't seem any different from discussing putting contemporary components on vintage frames, and I don't see CR as the place to talk about all the new stuff. But then my off-topic frames have on-topic components.

Not my call since it's not my list, but I'm fine with the current rule.

Mitch Harris Little Rock Canyon, UT

On Tue, Mar 4, 2008 at 12:57 PM, Dale Brown <oroboyz@aol.com> wrote:
>
> Mark wrote:
>
> << So we can discuss KOF frames but not the components that make them int o
> bicycles? A grey area indded.
> Mark Stevens Evanton Highlands >>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yes..... It is a tough call.
>
> It's all an attempt to keep manageable this list's already large amount o f traffic...
> .
> Imagine I say,"OK, talk about KOF frames, bikes and all their components" and then off we go, dragging into discussion every piece or part that can be bolted onto these traditionally made frames. It's a nightmare!
>
> Certainly the strongest argument would be to ban KOF frames/builders. Not ready to take that step (yet) so we have this odd compromise...
>
>
>
>
>
> Dale Brown
> Greensboro, North Carolina USA
> http://www.classicrendezvous.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Stevens <mark@lentran.com>
> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> Sent: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 2:23 pm
> Subject: [CR]KOF rules etc
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> So we can discuss KOF frames but not the components that make them into
> bicycles? A grey area indded. Mark Stevens Evanton Highlands ?
>
> _______________________________________________?
>
> Classicrendezvous mailing list?
>
> Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org?
>
> http://www.bikelist.org/mailman/listinfo/classicrendezvous
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Classicrendezvous mailing list
> Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> http://www.bikelist.org/mailman/listinfo/classicrendezvous
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Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 20:36:15 +0000 (GMT) From: willc <cherrycycle1@yahoo.co.uk> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: Re: [CR]Shimano 600 brakes on Miyata OR driving on the right???? Message-ID: <175415.21192.qm@web25701.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <395778.54206.qm@web82207.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: list Message: 7

Guys. it maybe simpler than you think.... remember our Japanese friends dri ve on the right as do we in Britain, Europe mostly have front brake on the left as you guys.... something to do with turning right and braking and h and signals Being right handed i always prefer the modulation and the feel that my dom inant side has over my left, especially in a fraught moment , I didn't copy the pros. for this very reason and i have seen front calipers with left s ided pull and vice versa..

willie carton coleraine n. ireland

Jerome & Elizabeth Moos <jerrymoos@sbcglobal.net> wrote: This was common on some old sidepulls, including some Weinmann models, I believe. Maybe it w as originally to accomodate the front lever on the right. I know this was popular on Italian bikes at one time, not sure about the rest of Europe or UK. But I've never found it a problem with the front lever on the left. O ne just needs to use a bit different cable housing length and routing.

Regards,

Jerry Moos

Big Spring, TX

John Wirt wrote: All, This has been bugging me for a while and figured the list must know this on e... My wife's 1982 Miyata 912 has the full Shimano 600 "Arabesque" gruppo. The odd thing is that the brake calipers are "backwards"! The cables come i n from the left side as you look at them, rather than the right. If one routes the cables using the standard left hand/front brake, the cabl e bend gets a bit tight on the front brake. Should I find later calipers? Why is this?

john wirt boise, id USA _______________________________________________ Classicrendezvous mailing list Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org http://www.bikelist.org/mailman/listinfo/classicrendezvous

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Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 15:39:42 -0500 From: "Via Bicycle" <viabicycle@gmail.com> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: [CR]more parts for sale Message-ID: <755971e20803041239u2146e2aflbf083cb08daa5d9f@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 8

a couple more parts I forgot to add. photos availible and s/h not included.

1. Cyclo (british) 3(so 3 cogs) speed cogset for Sturmey Archer internal hub. NOS. attaches to your normal 3 spline driver to turn your 3 speed hub into a 9 speed setup(in conjuction with a derailleur, of course). used 1/8" chain without master link. most if not all derailleurs made before 1980s should work with out a problem. $55

2. Cyclo (british) 2(so 2 cogs) speed cogset for Sturmey Archer internal hub. NOS. attaches to your normal 3 spline driver to turn your 3 speed hub. same as the 3 cog setup listed above. $50.

3. Brev. Campagnolo crank arm dust caps. NOS. Chrome and beautiful for your Nuovo and Super Record cranks. $30 for a pair.

ralph. bikeville@gmail.com philadelphia, PA ------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 16:39:00 -0500 From: "Wayne Bingham" <blkmktbks@gmail.com> To: "brianbaylis@juno.com" <brianbaylis@juno.com> Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Cc: mhoffman0@snet.net Subject: [CR]WAS butchered De Rosa...NOW Seat Post Binding Message-ID: <73706f460803041339y2577bc56pd17395436c0b4cc5@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 9

Interesting discussion, particularly considering how it began.

I also just did a quick survey of a lot of the bikes and frames kicking around here. With the exception of a few lower-end mountain bikes and similar oddities, there's maybe one frame, a TIG'd 853 frame, with just a slot in the tube, and it has a "round hole" at the bottom of the slot. It also uses a separate clamp, rather than a brazed-on binder. Nothing with a lug has the slot cut through it into the tube. Even a filet-brazed frame (Landshark) and two TIG'd frames (IF) are reinforced in some way, as Brian suggests.

However, I was just thinking. How many bazillion TIG'd steel frames, aluminum and other material frames are out there with nothing but a slot-in-the-tube? Probably not the BEST way to build a frame, but also apparently not dangerous enough to have the lawyers lining up.

Wayne Bingham Lovettsville VA USA

>
> The fact is there are millions of bikes with a slot like this. Most with
> out a hole at the end. There's nothing wrong with this (unless you are a
> framebuilder, in which case you should consider it a major NO-NO). Even
> with a fillet brazed frame, I put a small circular reinforcment at the
> bottom of the slot. Why not? It's there for the same reason one should p
> ut a ring around the head tube of a fillet brazed frame.
>
> No point in trying to fix a frame that has paint on it. But I've done ma
> ny jobs during a restoration where I fixed the situation by adding some
> metal on the back of the lug and reslotting it.
>
> Brian Baylis
> La Mesa, CA
> The beauty of lugged steel frames is almost anything can be fixed, inclu
> ding the gears. ;-) ------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 13:46:12 -0800 From: "Bruce Gordon" <bgcycles@svn.net> To: "'Wayne Bingham'" <blkmktbks@gmail.com>, <brianbaylis@juno.com> Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Cc: mhoffman0@snet.net Subject: RE: [CR]WAS butchered De Rosa...NOW Seat Post Binding Message-ID: <001201c87e41$2aa1cd00$6b01a8c0@BruceGordon> In-Reply-To: <73706f460803041339y2577bc56pd17395436c0b4cc5@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain;charset="US-ASCII" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Reply-To: bgcycles@svn.net Message: 10

-----Original Message----- From: classicrendezvous-bounces@bikelist.org [mailto:classicrendezvous-bounces@bikelist.org] On Behalf Of Wayne Bingham Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 1:39 PM To: brianbaylis@juno.com Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org; mhoffman0@snet.net Subject: [CR]WAS butchered De Rosa...NOW Seat Post Binding

"""""However, I was just thinking. How many bazillion TIG'd steel frames, aluminum and other material frames are out there with nothing but a slot-in-the-tube? Probably not the BEST way to build a frame, but also apparently not dangerous enough to have the lawyers lining up.""""

Wayne Bingham Lovettsville VA USA

No - no one ever died from a cracked seat tube at the lug! Is it sign of expert craftsmanship??? Definitely NOT. But, it doesn't stop people from deifying the builders - I guess NOT. Regards, Bruce Gordon Petaluma CA. http://www.bgcycles.com

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Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 13:54:16 -0800 (PST) From: Tom Dalton <tom_s_dalton@yahoo.com> To: frankensaab@earthlink.net Cc: Classic Rendezvous <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> Subject: [CR]Shimano 600 brakes on Miyata Message-ID: <108020.73604.qm@web55903.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: list Message: 11

Most brakes pull on the left, but plenty pull on the right. Older Japanese brakes (Shimano and Dia Compe) in particular seem to pull on the right. T here's nothing really wierd about your brakes, and as far as I know there's no particular reason for a manufacturer to have the brake pull on one side or another. Some might say that it reflects the way that riders of differ ent nationalities tend to set up their brakes, and some even say that this relates to matters historical and automotive. I don't know, but it is certa inly the case that you can run the cables to either lever from either type of caliper. The stuff about Italians prefering to attach the left lever to the rear brake are also not consistently borne out on the road, at least n ot in the last couple decades.

Interestingly, I think the next model Shimano brake above the 600 EX was the Dura Ace EX, and it pulled on the left, like Campy. DiaCompe's analog to the 600EX was the 500G and it pulled from the right, like the 600EX, whi le the higher end Gran Compe models pulled from the left. So, I think ther e was a pattern relating to quality also.

Tom Dalton Bethlehem PA USA

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Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 13:54:02 -0800 (PST) From: Tom Dalton <tom_s_dalton@yahoo.com> To: frankensaab@earthlink.net Cc: Classic Rendezvous <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> Subject: [CR]Shimano 600 brakes on Miyata Message-ID: <135282.49924.qm@web55910.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: list Message: 12

Most brakes pull on the left, but plenty pull on the right. Older Japanese brakes (Shimano and Dia Compe) in particular seem to pull on the right. T here's nothing really wierd about your brakes, and as far as I know there's no particular reason for a manufacturer to have the brake pull on one side or another. Some might say that it reflects the way that riders of differ ent nationalities tend to set up their brakes, and some even say that this relates to matters historical and automotive. I don't know, but it is certa inly the case that you can run the cables to either lever from either type of caliper. The stuff about Italians prefering to attach the left lever to the rear brake are also not consistently borne out on the road, at least n ot in the last couple decades.

Interestingly, I think the next model Shimano brake above the 600 EX was the Dura Ace EX, and it pulled on the left, like Campy. DiaCompe's analog to the 600EX was the 500G and it pulled from the right, like the 600EX, whi le the higher end Gran Compe models pulled from the left. So, I think ther e was a pattern relating to quality also.

Tom Dalton Bethlehem PA USA

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End of Classicrendezvous Digest, Vol 63, Issue 15 *************************************************

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