[CR]Nervex-lugged COLNAGO Pista bike: interesting point...

(Example: Framebuilders:Alberto Masi)

Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 22:52:37 +0000 (GMT)
From: "nicbordeaux" <nicbordeaux@yahoo.fr>
Subject: [CR]Nervex-lugged COLNAGO Pista bike: interesting point...
To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org


Norris Lockley raises a most valid point, that of the validity of provenanc e, and more particularly that of ownership or use of a given bicycle by a s pecific famous rider. I'd like to develop on that a bit with the noble aim of throwing further confusion on matters.  Nothing save a authent ificated (should that be authentified ?) written or filmed statement from t he rider himself can be considered definitive evidence. Even then, it would have to be proved that the person making the statement was not suffering f rom senile dementia, post-traumatic memory loss, megalomania, or any other number of afflictions, the most suspect of which are being terminally pisse d or stone broke. As to team mechanics selling off their champs' bikies, th e rags to riches temptation is far too great not to be considered. Notwiths tanding, using known or usual build specs or techniques as a yardstick for judging a bike's pedigree is nonesense (this isn't specifically directed at Norris at all, it is for all, me included): there is absolutely no reason that a given builder would not make a wild deviation from his normal proced ure by whim or request. Conformity to known building procedure, eg "signatu re" can be a good indicator of a bike's ID, but does not exclude a well mad e period copy either. I can but in the interest of brevity will refrain fro m citing examples of builders making very non true to type machines, especi ally in their earlier or last years.

The more bucks involved, the more likely a falsehood.

So, yes, to an extent I am saying that there are many, many accepted a s "historic" bikes out there which could be called "likely or possible fake s" without there being any serious grounds for a libel case.

Furtermore, I know of a number of people who could were they to so wish tak e a rather mundane bike from a given maker and turn it into a indiscernable from real "historic". Just as many people could take a badly damaged or ha cked bike and with their skills confer upon it a total virginity. Obviously , nobody is doing that, but it can be done.

These bothersome matters are further compounded by the fact that great race rs do tend to get through rather a lot of bikes in a long stage race, let a lone a season, or a career, so several bikes claiming the same history can all be genuine.

I know of only one bike that is genuinely most genuine in being a factory r acer, as it was assembled by a factory team chief mechanic in front of some one who would probably rather not be mentioned here, and who gave that bike straight to me. Not a boast, just a fact of life, I have other nicer stuff with provenance, but none of it would stand good in the face of an inquisi tion such as regularly takes places on CR when anything unusual/unorthodox comes up. Likewise, no account seems to be taken of the fact that a bike wh ich has been lost trace of before resurfacing is most likely "tampered with " or modified as it passes through various unknown owners hands and bits fa ll of and break, or the unknown owners modify the bike to their own taste w hilst it is not a collectable.

It would appear that grossly faked bikes abound, just as finely faked ones, that bikes of quite solid provenance do exist, as do bikes of highly unlik ely pedigree. The point I am trying to make ? How would I know ? Likely as not that one wouldn't want to cry wolf too soon ot too often.

As an afterthought, it could be added that the existence of factory records including serial numbers would be the only way of proving a bicycle as "ge nuine".  But you'd have to prove that the factory records were not tam pered with of late, or at the time for reasons of tax evasion. No folks, th ere is no way around this, we are going to have to dig up all those great o ld racers and get a DNA sample to match with some DNA from the bikes.

Nick March, Agen 47000, Lot et Garonne, France.

<<Hello, Listers.

I have just had an email reponse from the seller of this bike, in reply to

my query about the bottom bracket threads.

As we all suspected, I think, the threads are standard BSA, and the bracket itself one of the Nervex  Serie Legere ones...much in use in the UK in t he 50s and 60s.

I reckon that the likelihood of Altig Jnr specifying a BSA bracket thread w hen he probably intended to use Campag components is very unlikely.

There seems to be a rash of ex-Pro bikes coming on to the market in Europe

these days...particularly from folks claiming they are mechanics..claiming

good provenance. Last year I was offered a rare frame, allegedly used by Re ne Vietto, sourced from the mechanic who worked for Vietto's co-equipiers,

the Lazarides brothers.

I examined the frame, bars, stem, saddle etc and they were very obviously q uite fraudulent. The chap who had offered me the goods in all good faith, k nowing that I collect this type of material, took quite a hit on his purcha se, and is left with goods worth very little indeed.

Caveat Emptor

Norris Lockley..Settle UK>>

Everything you never wanted to know and more at http://membres.lycos.fr/nic
bordeaux/english/home.htm