Re: [CR]Re: wheels, tension, nipples, and the A word...

(Example: Racing:Jacques Boyer)

Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 19:13:32 -0700
From: <mrrabbit@mrrabbit.net>
To: crabulux@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [CR]Re: wheels, tension, nipples, and the A word...
References: <156271.27416.qm@web31506.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
In-Reply-To: <156271.27416.qm@web31506.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
cc: Classic Rendezvous <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>

Paint was the "original" spoke prep...

Was typically used for keeping a spoke seized at the location of a flat spot. Sometimes no matter how much manipulation with the classic flat spot removal tool - a spoke still needed a little help in terms of keeping the nipple in place while the customer worked on a budget for a future rim replacement.

You basically dipped the spoke into latex paint - assembled - let sit overnight - and out the door the next day went the wheel.

Temporary low cost fix...

Of course, not every customer saw it as temporary...

=8-)

Bob Shackelford San Jose, CA USA

Quoting devon warner <crabulux@yahoo.com>:
> I once saw a wheel builder deep in the basement of a bike shop doing what l
> ooked like a secret method to me: dipping the spoke threads into latex pain
> t. he said it made a well preserved, water proof bond and would never resu
> lt in a siezed up spoke. never saw or heard of anyone doing this before.
> anyone else hear of any such?
>
> devon warner
> san francisco, USA
>
> --- On Tue, 9/30/08, mrrabbit@mrrabbit.net <mrrabbit@mrrabbit.net> wrote:
>
> > From: mrrabbit@mrrabbit.net <mrrabbit@mrrabbit.net>
> > Subject: [CR]Re: wheels, tension, nipples, and the A word...
> > To: tom_s_dalton@yahoo.com
> > Cc: "Classic Rendezvous" <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> > Date: Tuesday, September 30, 2008, 2:08 PM
> > Personally, I don't have a problem with people using
> > Spoke Prep per se...
> >
> > ...I have a problem with those who use it to hide inferior
> > work. I see too
> > much of that.
> >
> > Also keep in mind that saying oil doesn't belong on
> > spoke threads is like
> > saying that a Phil Wood spoke machine should be operated
> > dry.
> >
> > Thousands of wheel builders before me for the past 100
> > years have used oil on
> > their spoke threads...what suddenly in the past year has
> > determined that to be
> > FATAL?
> >
> > When did butter become deadly - and margerine the no-fault
> > replacement?
> >
> > Kids for thousands of years were let loose to play, scrape
> > a knee, earn a
> > bruise or two...should I now tell everyone to keep their
> > kids in cages like
> > rats?
> >
> > Seriously...pressing emergency right-this-instant paradigm
> > shifting
> > fundamentals please...or just admit to being anal about a
> > personal choice.
> >
> > I use the nipple click and response torque as part of the
> > tensioning process.
> > Spoke Prep tends to muffle it...
> >
> > And once again, 2000+ wheels using bare threads and oil
> > with no problems.
> >
> > I'll up my wager. The challenger can bring a couple
> > 300 lb brutes to test our
> > wheels afterwards. The challenger is free to use Spoke
> > Prep.
> >
> > I don't need it - because I already know that a
> > properly tensioned wheel
> > doesn't require a "glue" to keep the nipples
> > from coming loose.
> >
> > To each their own...
> >
> > Bob Shackelford
> > San Jose, CA USA
> >
> >
> >
> > Quoting Tom Dalton <tom_s_dalton@yahoo.com>:
> >
> > > Robert St Cyr said:
> > >  
> > > With the rims I noticed a pattern of the spokes
> > > closest to the seam to tension more quickly due to the
> > thicker material in
> > > the rim at the seam. When at Interbike last week I
> > asked one of the velocit
> > > y reps If this was the case and he said it was true.
> > One can compensate by
> > > adding a 1 mm longer spoke or simply backing off the
> > spokes in that area ju
> > > st slightly.
> > >  
> > >  
> > >  
> > > Robert, I know you know this, but what you've said
> > might be confusing to
> > > readers.  Changing the length of the spoke does not
> > change its final tension
> > > it only changes where the nipple sits along the length
> > of the thread.  You
> > > might use a longer spoke in the situation that you
> > describe in order to get
> > > full engagement of the spoke threads, but that does
> > not alter the final
> > > tension.  If the rim builds up in a way that requires
> > relatively tight or
> > > relatively loose spokes near the joint in order to
> > get it round, as they
> > > often do, then it's simply a bad rim, though not
> > necessarily unusable or
> > > defective.  It's a common problem, but
> > lenghtening (or shortening) a
> > > spoke won't resolve it.  
> > >  
> > > This is not unlike calling the setup of indexed
> > shifter cables a tension
> > > adjustment, when it is really a change to the
> > effective cable length.
> > >  
> > >  
> > > Robert Shackelford wrote:
> > > 3.  Nipple glues (i.e., dried paint in the old days)
> > are too often a tool
> > > used
> > > not to build a better wheel - but instead to
> > obsfuscate a builder's
> > > inferiority
> > > complex over proper tensionsing.  Tensioning a wheel
> > properly assuming non-
> > > defective parts make "glues" unneccessary.
> > >  
> > >  
> > > Robert, while I agree with essentailly all the other
> > stuff you're said
> > > regarding the unnecessity of dial gauges (useless data
> > for certain, unless
> > > you're selling specs!) and tensiometers, I
> > strongly disagree with your
> > > assessment of nipple compounds.  While they may be
> > abused by people using
> > > them to keep weak undertensioned wheels from rattling
> > apart, they also have
> > > excellent utility in correctly built wheels.  My
> > properly built wheels only
> > > got better and easier to live with when I started to
> > use Spoke Prep.  The
> > > action at the nipple is smoother and you can make
> > smaller changes in spoke
> > > tension, because the material acts as a lubricant. 
> > Unlike oils and greases,
> > > WHICH HAVE NO PLACE ON SPOKE THREADS, Spoke Prep does
> > not lead to unwindling,
> > > and actually stabilizes the nipple.  In many cases
> > stainless spokes in brass
> > > nipples can corrode and sieze, and Spoke Prep
> > eliminates this problem too.  
> > > As for materials that form a solid bond, like certain
> > > Locktite compounds, that's just a bad choice
> > because it interferes with
> > > later adjustments.   So, old school stuff like
> > honey, linseed oil, or old
> > > paint (new to me) might be be more period correct, but
> > Spoke Prep is a great
> > > product for skilled builders.  Pure lubes (oils and
> > greases) and glues
> > > (locktite) are more than a little problematic.  Lube
> > on the nipple seat is a
> > > different matter, and not a problem in my experience,
> > though I only do it
> > > where I can feel a need. 
> > >  
> > > Tom Harriman wrote:
> > >  
> > > Having both ridden both store bought wheels and wheels
> > of my own making, I
> > > would like to shed a little light on this subject...
> > >  
> > > We should all take comfort and pride in the fact that
> > we are helping to keep
> > > the art of wheel build alive and strong in our
> > culture.
> > >  
> > >  
> > > Tom,
> > > Thanks for shedding light on this, but the question
> > was directed specifically
> > > at Earle, and having built a few hundred wheels myself
> > and handled thousands
> > > of machine buit wheels, I am familiar with the
> > differences. 
> > >  
> > > When the final result of a job correctly done looks
> > the same, and IS
> > > the same, irrespective of who did it, it is NOT
> > art.  Calling wheelbuilding
> > > art contributes to the overblown mystique of this
> > basic skill.  
> > >  
> > > I realize that I sound a bit terse here, but I
> > sometimes feel like people
> > > don't read all the words my messages.  I think it
> > was pretty clear where I
> > > was headed in my message to Earle, which is that I
> > don't think he has any
> > > objective basis for his unusually high regard for his
> > own product, and I
> > > certainly don't think of wheelbuilding as some
> > mystical craft, let alone
> > > art.  It reminds me of the day I received a resprayed
> > frame in the mail from
> > > an unnamed painter, and without telling me he added a
> > large, conspicuous and
> > > especially ugly decal to advertize his company under
> > my clear coat.  When I
> > > questioned it, he was puzzled as to why I took issue,
> > and said it was "like
> > > an artist signing his work."  When I choose the
> > single color, provide the
> > > decals and specify their placement, where is the art?
> > >  
> > > Tom Dalton
> > > Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, USA
> > >  
> > >  
> > >
> > >  
> > >  
> > >  
> > >  
> > >  
> > >  
> > > Tom Dalton
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
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> >
> >
> >
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>
>
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