[CR]stem bolt removal

(Example: Framebuilding:Technology)

Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 08:33:39 -0700
From: "Terry Farrant" <tgf1@shaw.ca>
To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
References: <MONKEYFOODT6658EMJm00000f73@monkeyfood.nt.phred.org>
reply-type=original
Subject: [CR]stem bolt removal

i recently acquired a 1981 Miyata 610 it has a nice Cinelli stem however the stem bolt is aluminum and the bolt head is stripped. ie: the allen key just turns in it and can't grab. Any suggestions for removing this bolt? Drill it out? I would like to save the stem if possible.

terry farrant
vancouver island, b.c.
canada


----- Original Message -----
From: classicrendezvous-request@bikelist.org
To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 10:18 PM
Subject: Classicrendezvous Digest, Vol 69, Issue 101



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> CR
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Re: wheels, tension, nipples, and the A word... (devon warner)
> 2. Re: Manly Wheel Builds---Top THIS!! (Dale Brown)
> 3. Re: Re: wheels, tension, nipples, and the A word...
> 4. Loctite types and removal (Bob Freitas)
> 5. Melton tandem (Bob Sutterfield)
> 6. Re: Jack Hateley 531 road frame with 140 mm rear spacing FS
> (Mark Stonich)
> 7. Re: wheels, tension, nipples, and the A word...
> 8. Re: Jack Hateley 531 road frame with 140 mm rear spacing FS
> (Mitch Harris)
> 9. re: Long Cage 50's Derailleurs - limitations (Peter Brueggeman)
> 10. RE: Loctite types and removal (Scott Minneman)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 18:12:29 -0700 (PDT)
> From: devon warner <crabulux@yahoo.com>
> To: Classic Rendezvous <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> Subject: Re: [CR]Re: wheels, tension, nipples, and the A word...
> Message-ID: <156271.27416.qm@web31506.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
> In-Reply-To: 1222808911.48e2954f2759d@www.mrrabbit.net
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Precedence: list
> Reply-To: crabulux@yahoo.com
> Message: 1
>
> I once saw a wheel builder deep in the basement of a bike shop doing what
> l
> ooked like a secret method to me: dipping the spoke threads into latex
> pain
> t. he said it made a well preserved, water proof bond and would never
> resu
> lt in a siezed up spoke. never saw or heard of anyone doing this before.
> anyone else hear of any such?
>
> devon warner
> san francisco, USA
>
> --- On Tue, 9/30/08, mrrabbit@mrrabbit.net <mrrabbit@mrrabbit.net> wrote:
>
>> From: mrrabbit@mrrabbit.net <mrrabbit@mrrabbit.net>
>> Subject: [CR]Re: wheels, tension, nipples, and the A word...
>> To: tom_s_dalton@yahoo.com
>> Cc: "Classic Rendezvous" <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
>> Date: Tuesday, September 30, 2008, 2:08 PM
>> Personally, I don't have a problem with people using
>> Spoke Prep per se...
>>
>> ...I have a problem with those who use it to hide inferior
>> work. I see too
>> much of that.
>>
>> Also keep in mind that saying oil doesn't belong on
>> spoke threads is like
>> saying that a Phil Wood spoke machine should be operated
>> dry.
>>
>> Thousands of wheel builders before me for the past 100
>> years have used oil on
>> their spoke threads...what suddenly in the past year has
>> determined that to be
>> FATAL?
>>
>> When did butter become deadly - and margerine the no-fault
>> replacement?
>>
>> Kids for thousands of years were let loose to play, scrape
>> a knee, earn a
>> bruise or two...should I now tell everyone to keep their
>> kids in cages like
>> rats?
>>
>> Seriously...pressing emergency right-this-instant paradigm
>> shifting
>> fundamentals please...or just admit to being anal about a
>> personal choice.
>>
>> I use the nipple click and response torque as part of the
>> tensioning process.
>> Spoke Prep tends to muffle it...
>>
>> And once again, 2000+ wheels using bare threads and oil
>> with no problems.
>>
>> I'll up my wager. The challenger can bring a couple
>> 300 lb brutes to test our
>> wheels afterwards. The challenger is free to use Spoke
>> Prep.
>>
>> I don't need it - because I already know that a
>> properly tensioned wheel
>> doesn't require a "glue" to keep the nipples
>> from coming loose.
>>
>> To each their own...
>>
>> Bob Shackelford
>> San Jose, CA USA
>>
>>
>>
>> Quoting Tom Dalton <tom_s_dalton@yahoo.com>:
>>
>> > Robert St Cyr said:
>> >
>> > With the rims I noticed a pattern of the spokes
>> > closest to the seam to tension more quickly due to the
>> thicker material in
>> > the rim at the seam. When at Interbike last week I
>> asked one of the velocit
>> > y reps If this was the case and he said it was true.
>> One can compensate by
>> > adding a 1 mm longer spoke or simply backing off the
>> spokes in that area ju
>> > st slightly.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Robert, I know you know this, but what you've said
>> might be confusing to
>> > readers. Changing the length of the spoke does not
>> change its final tension
>> > it only changes where the nipple sits along the length
>> of the thread. You
>> > might use a longer spoke in the situation that you
>> describe in order to get
>> > full engagement of the spoke threads, but that does
>> not alter the final
>> > tension. If the rim builds up in a way that requires
>> relatively tight or
>> > relatively loose spokes near the joint in order to
>> get it round, as they
>> > often do, then it's simply a bad rim, though not
>> necessarily unusable or
>> > defective. It's a common problem, but
>> lenghtening (or shortening) a
>> > spoke won't resolve it.
>> >
>> > This is not unlike calling the setup of indexed
>> shifter cables a tension
>> > adjustment, when it is really a change to the
>> effective cable length.
>> >
>> >
>> > Robert Shackelford wrote:
>> > 3. Nipple glues (i.e., dried paint in the old days)
>> are too often a tool
>> > used
>> > not to build a better wheel - but instead to
>> obsfuscate a builder's
>> > inferiority
>> > complex over proper tensionsing. Tensioning a wheel
>> properly assuming non-
>> > defective parts make "glues" unneccessary.
>> >
>> >
>> > Robert, while I agree with essentailly all the other
>> stuff you're said
>> > regarding the unnecessity of dial gauges (useless data
>> for certain, unless
>> > you're selling specs!) and tensiometers, I
>> strongly disagree with your
>> > assessment of nipple compounds. While they may be
>> abused by people using
>> > them to keep weak undertensioned wheels from rattling
>> apart, they also have
>> > excellent utility in correctly built wheels. My
>> properly built wheels only
>> > got better and easier to live with when I started to
>> use Spoke Prep. The
>> > action at the nipple is smoother and you can make
>> smaller changes in spoke
>> > tension, because the material acts as a lubricant.
>> Unlike oils and greases,
>> > WHICH HAVE NO PLACE ON SPOKE THREADS, Spoke Prep does
>> not lead to unwindling,
>> > and actually stabilizes the nipple. In many cases
>> stainless spokes in brass
>> > nipples can corrode and sieze, and Spoke Prep
>> eliminates this problem too.
>> > As for materials that form a solid bond, like certain
>> > Locktite compounds, that's just a bad choice
>> because it interferes with
>> > later adjustments. So, old school stuff like
>> honey, linseed oil, or old
>> > paint (new to me) might be be more period correct, but
>> Spoke Prep is a great
>> > product for skilled builders. Pure lubes (oils and
>> greases) and glues
>> > (locktite) are more than a little problematic. Lube
>> on the nipple seat is a
>> > different matter, and not a problem in my experience,
>> though I only do it
>> > where I can feel a need.
>> >
>> > Tom Harriman wrote:
>> >
>> > Having both ridden both store bought wheels and wheels
>> of my own making, I
>> > would like to shed a little light on this subject...
>> >
>> > We should all take comfort and pride in the fact that
>> we are helping to keep
>> > the art of wheel build alive and strong in our
>> culture.
>> >
>> >
>> > Tom,
>> > Thanks for shedding light on this, but the question
>> was directed specifically
>> > at Earle, and having built a few hundred wheels myself
>> and handled thousands
>> > of machine buit wheels, I am familiar with the
>> differences.
>> >
>> > When the final result of a job correctly done looks
>> the same, and IS
>> > the same, irrespective of who did it, it is NOT
>> art. Calling wheelbuilding
>> > art contributes to the overblown mystique of this
>> basic skill.
>> >
>> > I realize that I sound a bit terse here, but I
>> sometimes feel like people
>> > don't read all the words my messages. I think it
>> was pretty clear where I
>> > was headed in my message to Earle, which is that I
>> don't think he has any
>> > objective basis for his unusually high regard for his
>> own product, and I
>> > certainly don't think of wheelbuilding as some
>> mystical craft, let alone
>> > art. It reminds me of the day I received a resprayed
>> frame in the mail from
>> > an unnamed painter, and without telling me he added a
>> large, conspicuous and
>> > especially ugly decal to advertize his company under
>> my clear coat. When I
>> > questioned it, he was puzzled as to why I took issue,
>> and said it was "like
>> > an artist signing his work." When I choose the
>> single color, provide the
>> > decals and specify their placement, where is the art?
>> >
>> > Tom Dalton
>> > Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, USA
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Tom Dalton
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > PRIVACY WARNING: For auditing purposes, a copy of
>> this message has been
>> > saved in a permanent database.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> PRIVACY WARNING: For auditing purposes, a copy of this
>> message has been
>> saved in a permanent database.
>> _______________________________________________
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 21:26:25 -0400
> From: Dale Brown <oroboyz@aol.com>
> To: gerthe.bonk@googlemail.com, classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> Subject: Re: [CR]Manly Wheel Builds---Top THIS!!
> Message-ID: <8CAF17BDAD8CEC3-12C0-2E6C@FWM-D32.sysops.aol.com>
> In-Reply-To: <6f190f680809292024l3a122ba7yd6548b15b9e3a142@mail.gmail.com>
> References: <6f190f680809292024l3a122ba7yd6548b15b9e3a142@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Precedence: list
> Message: 2
>
>
> This mail was not sent by Garth Libre.
> Whoever sent this falsified mail has been removed (booted off) the CR
> list.
>
>
>
>
>
> Dale Brown
> Greensboro, North Carolina USA
> http://www.classicrendezvous.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bianca Pratorius <gerthe.bonk@googlemail.com>
> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> Sent: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 11:24 pm
> Subject: [CR]Manly Wheel Builds---Top THIS!!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> As to any list member who thinks it anal and potentially homo to build
> wheels, take it from a South Floridian who knows. I begin my highly
> ritualized affair by rolling my person in the droppings of the Dung
> Beetle.
> As all good listers should know, the Dung Beetle deposits powerful insect
> sperm in its droppings before rolling them into a dung heep. I then wrip
> off whatever shirt I am wearing with bear hands and incisors only. I do
> the
> same to my shoes, pants and socks. I wear no underwear several days
> before I build wheels in anticipation of the blessed event. I use latex
> paint and nipple cream on my average wheels. For the superfast man of
> steel
> on a steel steed, I use my own man seed which tends to flow in copious
> amounts when properly flagellated by a good hard tension-o-meter. Often
> the
> wheel building will stretch into the morning hours where you'll then find
> me
> sated, bronzed and a build to behold.
>
> Viva La Flambe,
>
> Garth Libre in Miami Florida USA
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 19:13:32 -0700
> From: mrrabbit@mrrabbit.net
> To: crabulux@yahoo.com
> Cc: Classic Rendezvous <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> Subject: Re: [CR]Re: wheels, tension, nipples, and the A word...
> Message-ID: 1222827212.48e2dccc436ee@www.mrrabbit.net
> In-Reply-To: <156271.27416.qm@web31506.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
> References: <156271.27416.qm@web31506.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
> Precedence: list
> Message: 3
>
> Paint was the "original" spoke prep...
>
> Was typically used for keeping a spoke seized at the location of a flat
> spot.
> Sometimes no matter how much manipulation with the classic flat spot
> removal
> tool - a spoke still needed a little help in terms of keeping the nipple
> in
> place while the customer worked on a budget for a future rim replacement.
>
> You basically dipped the spoke into latex paint - assembled - let sit
> overnight - and out the door the next day went the wheel.
>
> Temporary low cost fix...
>
> Of course, not every customer saw it as temporary...
>
> =8-)
>
> Bob Shackelford
> San Jose, CA USA
>
>
>
>
> Quoting devon warner <crabulux@yahoo.com>:
>
>> I once saw a wheel builder deep in the basement of a bike shop doing what
>> l
>> ooked like a secret method to me: dipping the spoke threads into latex
>> pain
>> t. he said it made a well preserved, water proof bond and would never
>> resu
>> lt in a siezed up spoke. never saw or heard of anyone doing this before.
>> anyone else hear of any such?
>>
>> devon warner
>> san francisco, USA
>>
>> --- On Tue, 9/30/08, mrrabbit@mrrabbit.net <mrrabbit@mrrabbit.net> wrote:
>>
>> > From: mrrabbit@mrrabbit.net <mrrabbit@mrrabbit.net>
>> > Subject: [CR]Re: wheels, tension, nipples, and the A word...
>> > To: tom_s_dalton@yahoo.com
>> > Cc: "Classic Rendezvous" <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
>> > Date: Tuesday, September 30, 2008, 2:08 PM
>> > Personally, I don't have a problem with people using
>> > Spoke Prep per se...
>> >
>> > ...I have a problem with those who use it to hide inferior
>> > work. I see too
>> > much of that.
>> >
>> > Also keep in mind that saying oil doesn't belong on
>> > spoke threads is like
>> > saying that a Phil Wood spoke machine should be operated
>> > dry.
>> >
>> > Thousands of wheel builders before me for the past 100
>> > years have used oil on
>> > their spoke threads...what suddenly in the past year has
>> > determined that to be
>> > FATAL?
>> >
>> > When did butter become deadly - and margerine the no-fault
>> > replacement?
>> >
>> > Kids for thousands of years were let loose to play, scrape
>> > a knee, earn a
>> > bruise or two...should I now tell everyone to keep their
>> > kids in cages like
>> > rats?
>> >
>> > Seriously...pressing emergency right-this-instant paradigm
>> > shifting
>> > fundamentals please...or just admit to being anal about a
>> > personal choice.
>> >
>> > I use the nipple click and response torque as part of the
>> > tensioning process.
>> > Spoke Prep tends to muffle it...
>> >
>> > And once again, 2000+ wheels using bare threads and oil
>> > with no problems.
>> >
>> > I'll up my wager. The challenger can bring a couple
>> > 300 lb brutes to test our
>> > wheels afterwards. The challenger is free to use Spoke
>> > Prep.
>> >
>> > I don't need it - because I already know that a
>> > properly tensioned wheel
>> > doesn't require a "glue" to keep the nipples
>> > from coming loose.
>> >
>> > To each their own...
>> >
>> > Bob Shackelford
>> > San Jose, CA USA
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Quoting Tom Dalton <tom_s_dalton@yahoo.com>:
>> >
>> > > Robert St Cyr said:
>> > >
>> > > With the rims I noticed a pattern of the spokes
>> > > closest to the seam to tension more quickly due to the
>> > thicker material in
>> > > the rim at the seam. When at Interbike last week I
>> > asked one of the velocit
>> > > y reps If this was the case and he said it was true.
>> > One can compensate by
>> > > adding a 1 mm longer spoke or simply backing off the
>> > spokes in that area ju
>> > > st slightly.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Robert, I know you know this, but what you've said
>> > might be confusing to
>> > > readers. Changing the length of the spoke does not
>> > change its final tension
>> > > it only changes where the nipple sits along the length
>> > of the thread. You
>> > > might use a longer spoke in the situation that you
>> > describe in order to get
>> > > full engagement of the spoke threads, but that does
>> > not alter the final
>> > > tension. If the rim builds up in a way that requires
>> > relatively tight or
>> > > relatively loose spokes near the joint in order to
>> > get it round, as they
>> > > often do, then it's simply a bad rim, though not
>> > necessarily unusable or
>> > > defective. It's a common problem, but
>> > lenghtening (or shortening) a
>> > > spoke won't resolve it.
>> > >
>> > > This is not unlike calling the setup of indexed
>> > shifter cables a tension
>> > > adjustment, when it is really a change to the
>> > effective cable length.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Robert Shackelford wrote:
>> > > 3. Nipple glues (i.e., dried paint in the old days)
>> > are too often a tool
>> > > used
>> > > not to build a better wheel - but instead to
>> > obsfuscate a builder's
>> > > inferiority
>> > > complex over proper tensionsing. Tensioning a wheel
>> > properly assuming non-
>> > > defective parts make "glues" unneccessary.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Robert, while I agree with essentailly all the other
>> > stuff you're said
>> > > regarding the unnecessity of dial gauges (useless data
>> > for certain, unless
>> > > you're selling specs!) and tensiometers, I
>> > strongly disagree with your
>> > > assessment of nipple compounds. While they may be
>> > abused by people using
>> > > them to keep weak undertensioned wheels from rattling
>> > apart, they also have
>> > > excellent utility in correctly built wheels. My
>> > properly built wheels only
>> > > got better and easier to live with when I started to
>> > use Spoke Prep. The
>> > > action at the nipple is smoother and you can make
>> > smaller changes in spoke
>> > > tension, because the material acts as a lubricant.
>> > Unlike oils and greases,
>> > > WHICH HAVE NO PLACE ON SPOKE THREADS, Spoke Prep does
>> > not lead to unwindling,
>> > > and actually stabilizes the nipple. In many cases
>> > stainless spokes in brass
>> > > nipples can corrode and sieze, and Spoke Prep
>> > eliminates this problem too.
>> > > As for materials that form a solid bond, like certain
>> > > Locktite compounds, that's just a bad choice
>> > because it interferes with
>> > > later adjustments. So, old school stuff like
>> > honey, linseed oil, or old
>> > > paint (new to me) might be be more period correct, but
>> > Spoke Prep is a great
>> > > product for skilled builders. Pure lubes (oils and
>> > greases) and glues
>> > > (locktite) are more than a little problematic. Lube
>> > on the nipple seat is a
>> > > different matter, and not a problem in my experience,
>> > though I only do it
>> > > where I can feel a need.
>> > >
>> > > Tom Harriman wrote:
>> > >
>> > > Having both ridden both store bought wheels and wheels
>> > of my own making, I
>> > > would like to shed a little light on this subject...
>> > >
>> > > We should all take comfort and pride in the fact that
>> > we are helping to keep
>> > > the art of wheel build alive and strong in our
>> > culture.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Tom,
>> > > Thanks for shedding light on this, but the question
>> > was directed specifically
>> > > at Earle, and having built a few hundred wheels myself
>> > and handled thousands
>> > > of machine buit wheels, I am familiar with the
>> > differences.
>> > >
>> > > When the final result of a job correctly done looks
>> > the same, and IS
>> > > the same, irrespective of who did it, it is NOT
>> > art. Calling wheelbuilding
>> > > art contributes to the overblown mystique of this
>> > basic skill.
>> > >
>> > > I realize that I sound a bit terse here, but I
>> > sometimes feel like people
>> > > don't read all the words my messages. I think it
>> > was pretty clear where I
>> > > was headed in my message to Earle, which is that I
>> > don't think he has any
>> > > objective basis for his unusually high regard for his
>> > own product, and I
>> > > certainly don't think of wheelbuilding as some
>> > mystical craft, let alone
>> > > art. It reminds me of the day I received a resprayed
>> > frame in the mail from
>> > > an unnamed painter, and without telling me he added a
>> > large, conspicuous and
>> > > especially ugly decal to advertize his company under
>> > my clear coat. When I
>> > > questioned it, he was puzzled as to why I took issue,
>> > and said it was "like
>> > > an artist signing his work." When I choose the
>> > single color, provide the
>> > > decals and specify their placement, where is the art?
>> > >
>> > > Tom Dalton
>> > > Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, USA
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Tom Dalton
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > > PRIVACY WARNING: For auditing purposes, a copy of
>> > this message has been
>> > > saved in a permanent database.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > PRIVACY WARNING: For auditing purposes, a copy of this
>> > message has been
>> > saved in a permanent database.
>> > _______________________________________________
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>> --
>> PRIVACY WARNING: For auditing purposes, a copy of this message has been
>> saved in a permanent database.
>>
>
>
>
>
> --
> PRIVACY WARNING: For auditing purposes, a copy of this message has been
> saved in a permanent database.
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 20:18:26 -0700
> From: Bob Freitas <freitas1@pacbell.net>
> To: CLASSIC RENDEZVOUS <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> Subject: [CR]Loctite types and removal
> Message-ID: <48E2EC02.1020304@pacbell.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Precedence: list
> Message: 4
>
>
>
> There are many numbers and colors but what you see most often is
> Blue(#242) or Red (#271/292)
> Blue is removable with tools while Red requires quite a
> bit of heat (toasted paint)
> They are both sealers so it could be no matter what
> penetrant you use it will be all for nothing.
> I would try the hair dryer in combination with tools first
> , then move on to the items that will damage and mar
>
> BOB FREITAS
> MILL VALLEY, CA USA
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 20:20:23 -0700
> From: "Bob Sutterfield" <bob@sutterfields.us>
> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> Subject: [CR]Melton tandem
> Message-ID: <362a29b90809302020r242bebd9t12383839514822c@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Precedence: list
> Message: 5
>
> Hello,
>
> Last spring we took custody (via a Craigslist ad) of a red Melton
> tandem. Fillet brazed (except the lugged fork crown) with a Marathon
> lateral between the headset and the 140mm rear dropouts. 26.6mm seat
> tubes, which I'm told is a mutt spec because a standard box-o-pipes
> tube set (from two of which a tandem was assembled) didn't have enough
> of the right sizes. 1" steerer, Phil hubs, TA cranks, SunTour VX
> derailleurs setup 3x7 with bar-end shifters, Mafac cantilevers, Campy
> headset, Arai drum, it's all here.
>
> It has no identifying marks other than the Melton decals on the down
> and boom tubes. No head badge. No tube decals from Reynolds etc. No
> serial numbers or dates or anything else stamped into the BB shells or
> anywhere else I can think to look.
>
> It attracts attention wherever we go, more I think than a modern
> tandem would. It draws admiring looks and lots of questions,
> particularly from guys who are, shall we say, beyond their salad days.
>
> Can anyone help me learn more about this lovely bike? When and where
> was Mike Melton building tandems, and how might I narrow down the
> period during which this was built?
>
> Thanks for any info you can share!
> --
> Bob Sutterfield
> Saratoga California USA
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 23:02:47 -0500
> From: Mark Stonich <mark@bikesmithdesign.com>
> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> Subject: Re: [CR]Jack Hateley 531 road frame with 140 mm rear spacing FS
> Message-ID: <E1KkswT-00043F-8k@elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
> In-Reply-To: <12CAD406-D40E-49F7-847F-D10050EC6F6A@earthlink.net>
> References: <12CAD406-D40E-49F7-847F-D10050EC6F6A@earthlink.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Precedence: list
> Message: 6
>
> At 06:09 PM 9/30/2008, Jon Spangler wrote:
>>Folks,
>>
>>There is a gorgeous and intriguing Jack Hateley 531 road frame for
>>sale in GB that has spent time in local museums there:
>>
>>JACK HATELEY 50s Hdblt 531 ENGLISH ROAD FRAME
>>Item Number: 350101398809
>>
>>I received the following reply when I asked the seller (apparently an
>>agent) about the frame's listed 140 mm rear spacing:
>>
>>"Hi,Not sure but during the period that this frame was made there was
>>a lot of experimentation and design concepts produced.It could be
>>that a Sturmey hub had been combined with a cyclo style freewheel
>>making quite an interesting gear combination.It would easily be reset
>>down to 130mm etc by a pro builder or LBshop. Hope that helps. Might
>>be worth trying ClassicRendezvous for more info and this frame is I
>>believe shown and listed by Wolverhampton Museum.Happy pedalling alex"
>>
>>Has anyone else in CR land seen this 140 mm rear spacing before or
>>been to the Wolverhampton Museum?
>
> I'd be surprised if anyone made SA axles long enough to go 140mm in
> those days, though some of the modern ones are, I have an
> aftermarket Sturmey AW axle intended for use with a multi speed
> cluster. It is no longer than a standard "long" 6-1/4" axle, and
> just moves the hub to the left to make room for a freewheel.
> http://bikesmithdesign.com/SA/CustomAxle.jpg Does anyone know
> anything about these axles?
>
> One reason for wide rear spacing is that you can eliminate dish in
> the wheel. When I build a frame I offset the rear triangle to
> accomplish this, allowing 1.8-1.5-1.8mm DT Revolution spokes on both
> sided of the wheel. I can adequately stretch all the spokes with
> much less stress on the rim.
>
> But for the clusters available in the '50s I think 130mm would have
> done that. I expect the rear end was respaced later, probably when
> the BOs & derailleur hanger were added. It would be interesting to
> see if the stays are bowed out at the bridges. It would be noticable
> on the seat stays. However some framebuilders do replace the brake
> bridge when respacing the rear end to avoid a bend in the seat
> stays. And someone with some frame builders skills was obviously
> involved in the modifications.
>
> I'm sure that everything Norris says about the frame is true, but
> it's still interesting. It's my size and I like the color. If it
> were here in the US (cheaper S&H) and that BIN price was in USD
> instead of GBP I would consider it.
>
> Mark Stonich;
> BikeSmith Design & Fabrication
> 5349 Elliot Ave S. - Minneapolis. MN 55417
> Ph. (612) 824-2372 http://bikesmithdesign.com
> http://mnhpva.org
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 21:14:31 -0700
> From: mrrabbit@mrrabbit.net
> To: Chuck Schmidt <chuckschmidt@earthlink.net>
> Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> Subject: [CR]Re: wheels, tension, nipples, and the A word...
> Message-ID: 1222834471.48e2f927ec9bf@www.mrrabbit.net
> In-Reply-To: <35732FF9-56F7-464B-BF09-7FBBB45B8B2F@earthlink.net>
> References: <156271.27416.qm@web31506.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
> 1222827212.48e2dccc436ee@www.mrrabbit.net
> <35732FF9-56F7-464B-BF09-7FBBB45B8B2F@earthlink.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
> Precedence: list
> Message: 7
>
> Quite possibly we have a split here...
>
> That "prep" used as a glue...which the paint was...
>
> ...and that used as a lube and glue...
>
> =8-)
>
> In my mind I'm thinking glue...
>
> Robert Shackelford
> San Jose, CA USA
>
>
>
> Quoting Chuck Schmidt <chuckschmidt@earthlink.net>:
>
>>
>>
>> > Paint was the "original" spoke prep...
>>
>>
>> Bob, I think you are in error... linseed oil was the original spoke
>> prep. Heard that it was in common usage in the thirties and probably
>> predates that. Works as oil and then sets up hard...
>>
>> Chuck
>>
>>
>> --
>> PRIVACY WARNING: For auditing purposes, a copy of this message has been
>> saved in a permanent database.
>>
>
>
>
>
> --
> PRIVACY WARNING: For auditing purposes, a copy of this message has been
> saved in a permanent database.
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 22:14:54 -0600
> From: "Mitch Harris" <mitch.harris@gmail.com>
> To: "Jon Spangler" <hudsonspangler@earthlink.net>
> Cc: Dale Brown <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> Subject: Re: [CR]Jack Hateley 531 road frame with 140 mm rear spacing FS
> Message-ID: <8801bb250809302114oefea07bw4952b50aba6942c5@mail.gmail.com>
> In-Reply-To: <12CAD406-D40E-49F7-847F-D10050EC6F6A@earthlink.net>
> References: <12CAD406-D40E-49F7-847F-D10050EC6F6A@earthlink.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Precedence: list
> Message: 8
>
> Wasn't 140mm the standard tandem rear spacing at the time this bike
> was built? It may have been made for a tandem hub with the idea of
> eliminating dish, and/or improving chain line, and/or for using a
> tandem hub for some other reason.
>
> Anyway, a vintage tandem rear hub would still be a good option for
> this frame that would not require cold setting.
>
> Mitch Harris
> Little Rock Canyon, Utah, USA
>
> On 9/30/08, Jon Spangler <hudsonspangler@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> Folks,
>>
>> There is a gorgeous and intriguing Jack Hateley 531 road frame for sale
>> in
>> GB that has spent time in local museums there:
>>
>> JACK HATELEY 50s Hdblt 531 ENGLISH ROAD FRAME
>> Item Number: 350101398809
>>
>> I received the following reply when I asked the seller (apparently an
>> agent)
>> about the frame's listed 140 mm rear spacing:
>>
>> "Hi,Not sure but during the period that this frame was made there was a
>> lot
>> of experimentation and design concepts produced.It could be that a
>> Sturmey
>> hub had been combined with a cyclo style freewheel making quite an
>> interesting gear combination.It would easily be reset down to 130mm etc
>> by a
>> pro builder or LBshop. Hope that helps. Might be worth trying
>> ClassicRendezvous for more info and this frame is I believe shown and
>> listed
>> by Wolverhampton Museum.Happy pedalling alex"
>>
>> Has anyone else in CR land seen this 140 mm rear spacing before or been
>> to
>> the Wolverhampton Museum?
>>
>> Jon Spangler
>> who is learning all the time about older bikes in Alameda, CA USA
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 21:41:16 -0700
> From: "Peter Brueggeman" <4peebee@peterbrueggeman.com>
> To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> Subject: re: [CR] Long Cage 50's Derailleurs - limitations
> Message-ID: <B5CAC166B4014BE5A7859F5AF745C976@PC9960>
> Content-Type: text/plain;format=flowed;charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=original
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Precedence: list
> Reply-To: Peter Brueggeman <4peebee@peterbrueggeman.com>
> Message: 9
>
> Amir, your rear derailleur is the earlier model Benelux Tourist with no
> badge on the derailleur body. The later Mark 8 Tourists (well, those that
> I
> own) have a Benelux red metal badge on the derailleur body. I too have not
> been able to get that earlier Benelux Tourist to work with a 28 tooth
> freewheel cog, despite the 28t freewheel capacity stated in "The Dancing
> Chain." I recall the max I got it to reach was a 26t cog and then I
> changed
> over to the later Mark 8 Tourist model to get the freewheel range I was
> seeking.
>
> I measured my Benelux Tourist and Benelux Mark 8 Tourist derailleurs to
> compare with yours:
>
> derailleur body center-to-center
> Benelux Tourist: 55mm
> Benelux Mark 8 Tourist: 58 or 59mm
>
> pulley cage center-to-center
> Benelux Tourist: 78mm
> Benelux Mark 8 Tourist: 78mm
>
> There's a definite difference between the derailleur body length in the
> two
> models.
>
> Peter
> ......................................
> Peter Brueggeman
> La Jolla California USA
> 4peebee(AT)peterbrueggeman.com
>
>
> From: Amir Avitzur <avitzur(AT)013.net>
> Subject: [CR]Long Cage 50's Derailleurs - limitations
>
> I spent the day trying to fit some long cage 50's derailleurs on a '53
> Hobbs. Tried a Simplex Rigidex 35 (which turned out to be a 3 speed) and
> two
> Cyclo Benelux Tourists. None of them could handle the 26 tooth large cog
> on
> the freewheel. The upper pulley cage simply ran into it unless the
> derailleur was angled back too much. So I switched to a 14~22 freewheel
> and
> the Benelux works, but just barely (front is 50-36).
> How wide a gear range could Brits use back then? ... and how did they get
> it?
>
> Amir Avitzur
> Ramat-Gan, Israel
> ANDSubject: [CR]'53 Hobbs Photos
> .... The measurements of my Cyclo-Benelux Tourist are at:
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/8210984@N06/2901652375/
>
> Amir
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 22:16:41 -0700
> From: "Scott Minneman" <minneman@onomy.com>
> To: "'CLASSIC RENDEZVOUS'" <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> Subject: RE: [CR]Loctite types and removal
> Message-ID: <41B3EFC6305541CABF14061BFA89D401@H10N7>
> In-Reply-To: <48E2EC02.1020304@pacbell.net>
> References: <48E2EC02.1020304@pacbell.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain;charset="us-ascii"
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Precedence: list
> Message: 10
>
> I believe that MEK (methyl-ethyl-keytone) will dissolve and slowly
> penetrate
> the Loctite variety you are dealing with here. MEK is evil stuff, very
> bad
> for you to come into contact with (read the warnings and follow them
> closely). It will also ruin/remove paint, so you'll have to judge whether
> it can be applied where you need it in a way that will avoid doing damage.
>
> The temperature you need to get these compounds to break down aren't all
> that extreme. If you can get it up to 350 degrees farenheit or so it'll
> give way. Many paints (and powercoat) can survive having these
> temperatures
> in the neighborhood (cooling rags help, too).
>
> Good luck.
>
> Scott Minneman
> San Francisco, CA, USA
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: classicrendezvous-bounces@bikelist.org
> [mailto:classicrendezvous-bounces@bikelist.org] On Behalf Of Bob Freitas
> Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 8:18 PM
> To: CLASSIC RENDEZVOUS
> Subject: [CR]Loctite types and removal
>
>
>
> There are many numbers and colors but what you see most often is
> Blue(#242) or Red (#271/292)
> Blue is removable with tools while Red requires quite a bit
> of heat (toasted paint)
> They are both sealers so it could be no matter what penetrant
> you use it will be all for nothing.
> I would try the hair dryer in combination with tools first ,
> then move on to the items that will damage and mar
>
> BOB FREITAS
> MILL VALLEY, CA USA
> _______________________________________________
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> End of Classicrendezvous Digest, Vol 69, Issue 101
> **************************************************