Hi Jerry,
Did you read ANY of the message from Tom about what it takes to make a Ti saddle? Even given that Ti is a "commodity" (one report I read recently stated that titanium is 30x as expensive per pound to produce than steel and 6x as expensive as aluminum), the cost of the tooling to either forge or cast titanium is exceedingly expensive and must be amortized into the cost of these saddles. The smaller the number produced, the greater the tooling burden per unit. I won't even get into the costs of different alloys of Ti, especially compared to the cost of producing Chrome-Moly steel, which is much easier to work with.
Personally, I am amazed that the Ti versions are not twice the price of their CroMo cousins, given the costs and quantities involved.
Mark Ritz Former Product Manager Arcata, California, USA http://www.kinetic-koffee.com ritzmon.blogspot.com
--- On Sun, 11/16/08, Jerome & Elizabeth Moos <jerrymoos@sbcglobal.net> wro te:
From: Jerome & Elizabeth Moos <jerrymoos@sbcglobal.net> Subject: Re: Brooks swallow (GULP...) To: "Tom Martin" <tom@voimports.com> Date: Sunday, November 16, 2008, 1:46 PM
I agree with you about the steel models. They are well worth their price and were underpriced under previous owners, but Ti has become a commodity to an extent. I'll bet those Chinese TI frame sets sold by UK and US mar keters don't even cost as much to make as the price of a Swallow Classic Ti . Note SJS in UK is currently selling the steel Swallow for $170.79 and the TI Swallow for $229.49, a premium of $58.70. I rest my case.
Regards,
Jerry Moos
From: Tom Martin <tom@voimports.com> Subject: Brooks swallow (GULP...) To: jerrymoos@sbcglobal.net, "Classic Rendezvous" <classicrendezvous@bikeli st.org>, veronaman@gmail.com Date: Sunday, November 16, 2008, 12:37 PM
I think the '$50' premium for a Ti rail version is a little unrealistic. Th e Brooks is a unique saddle with a LOT more metal and skilled labor involve d than any other saddle. Most contemporary saddles have one 300mm piece of steel, or ti, or whatever metal, rod or tube bent into a seat rail. There i sn't any welding or additional hardware necessary, as it's wedged into the saddle shell. The saddle shell is flexed to fit the rail in the cleats hold ing it. Brooks, on the other hand, has a cantle plate which is cast or forged Ti; t here are the much longer ti trails; there is a bolt and nut which is Ti; th ere is a nose 'mandrel' made of Ti. The rails must be welded to the cantlep late; the cantleplate must be riveted to the leather top; the nose parts mu st be assembled. There's more than just the material costs involved- which is not cheap by itself. Welding Ti is not cheap. We can assume the wages of British saddle makers are not 3rd world level so there is a moderate cost impact for assembling the remainder of the saddle.
Personally I think the B17 is just now being properly valued at ~$90-110. T he days of $50 brooks are long gone, thankfully so. They really are an arti fact from a time where 'hand made' meant something and was prevalant even i n industrial settings.
Tom Martin
Annapolis MD usa