Well, my point was that the cost of Ti and working with Ti no longer makes Ti frames or components automatically three times more expensive than an al ternate material. The Chinese made frames illustarte that. So I think we are both saying that the price is the result of supply and demand more than of manufacturing cost. Brooks, or at least their dealers, have been asking and getting as much as triple the price for the Ti versions of sadd les in the US market. I bought some back when the premium was more like 50% but have refused to buy at the recent prices which I consider ridiculou s. The heavy discounting of the Limited edition Swallow and the Sprinter and the preimum for Ti models in UK, not just at SJS, suggest that Brooks is now encountering resistance to their high prices. I suspect that the SJS prices more closely reflect real costs in that at those prices the pr ofit margins for steel and Ti models will be similar, whereas at the suggested retail prices in the US the profits for someone, be it Brooks or the dealers, was much higher for the Ti models.
What now seems to be a pushback against the high Ti prices is no doubt part ly related to the worldwide recession, but it may also be that Brooks has l argely saturated the market for obscenely expensive saddles. Even in a s ociety as decadent and ego-obsessed as our, there are a limited number of p eople both able and willing to pay the nearly $700 suggested retail price o f the Limited Edition Swallow, and it seems perhaps most of those people al ready have theirs. And for collectors with multiple bikes, one may buy o ne high-priced Ti saddle, but few will be inclined to buy three or four sad dles at that price. So I suspect that we will see further discounting of Brooks Ti saddles in the US, as Selle Royal has already shown a willingn ess to deeply discount selected models in response to slow sales.
Regards,
Jerry Moos
Big Spring, Texas, USA
From: Tom Martin <tom@voimports.com> Subject: [CR]Brooks swallow (GULP...) To: "Classic Rendezvous" <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> Date: Sunday, November 16, 2008, 11:22 PM
comparing the retail price of a brooks Ti saddle with manufacturers cost of a Ti frame is kinda ridiculous. So what if it's the same or less? The landed cost of a toyota Yaris the same as the the retail of a nice set of alloy racing wheels with tires. Point being.....? What exactly? Gold is a commodity, same thing with Uranium. They still god awful expensive material s and often dificult to work with. So maybe SJS has a sweetheart deal with brooks. In Germany, the exchange rate is 300 for the ti, and 140 for the steel rail versions. Maybe Brooks USA is determining the retail price based on what ppl are willing to pay, like their german, japanese, italian counterparts. Jerry would be supremely happy to hear that. It is interesting to see how the distribution modes play a part in determining retail pricing. my previous point of a distro change hasn;t made it any easier to supply brooks, but I think the pricing is reflective of each saddles supply according to demand.
all in all, I kinda agree with you Jerry, but under different circumstances . no doubt there is a very heavy premium to spec ti anything. I suspect the U S market is subsidizing other markets lower prices.
Think of it as the bike industry version of prescription drugs.....they are cheaper in Mexico and canada!
tom martin annapolis md going round in circles in the usa
From: Jerome & Elizabeth Moos <jerrymoos@sbcglobal.net> Subject: Re: Brooks swallow (GULP...) To: "Tom Martin" <tom@voimports.com> Date: Sunday, November 16, 2008, 1:46 PM
I agree with you about the steel models. They are well worth their price and were underpriced under previous owners, but Ti has become a commodity to an extent. I'll bet those Chinese TI frame sets sold by UK and US mar keters don't even cost as much to make as the price of a Swallow Classic Ti . Note SJS in UK is currently selling the steel Swallow for $170.79 and the TI Swallow for $229.49, a premium of $58.70. I rest my case.
Regards,
Jerry Moos
--
Tom Martin
General Manager
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