Re: [CR]Holdsworth Auction Cancelled


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Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 15:29:04 -0800
From: David Patrick <patrick-ajdb@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: [CR]Holdsworth Auction Cancelled
To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>, Eric Elman <tr4play@cox.net>
In-Reply-To: <001501c967af$709e2580$6401a8c0@acerad993ba82b>


I am the party that sold Eric the Holdsworth frame and I purchased the fram e from a party in the U.K.  I am very surprised to see it's pedigree ques tioned at this point.  I used to be very active on the CR list, having be en a member for 8+ years now,  but have remained in the background for th e past 4 years.  I've dealt with a lot of CR members and pride myself o n my integrity.  I believe Eric is jumping the gun here by "buying into" that this is not a Holds frameset.  Here is my most recent email to Eric:

Eric,

I'm sorry, but I think this is bullshit, to be very candid. Man, I've n ever done anything to mislead anyone on any items that I've sold, so to h ave this come from out of the past at such a late date is surprising.   Just so you know, BJ does stamp all frames w/numbers that are brought in fo r refinishing.   
>From my memory: This frame was labeled as a "Bob Addy", who was an ex-Holds racing team member. Bob had his own store for a while and it is my underst anding that he had Holds make up some frames to Super Mistral specs w/his n ame on them to be sold in his store.  The frame had Bob Addy stickers w/a Holds headbadge when I acquired the frame in the U.K.  It was sent direc tly to BJ for refinish.

Now, who is playing the Holds expert w/info on wheelbase etc?

Dave

I stand by this frame and I can attest it was NOT a Bob Jackson or Merlin.   That is just silly stuff.  Perhaps a "Bob Addy" labeled frame is not exactly like the Super Mistrals?   Anyway, I think a rush to judgement has occured here and Eric has been a bit too hasty in stopping his auction.

Dave Patrick
Chelsea, Michigan


--- On Fri, 12/26/08, Eric Elman wrote:


From: Eric Elman <tr4play@cox.net> Subject: [CR]Holdsworth Auction Cancelled To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Date: Friday, December 26, 2008, 6:12 PM

Well, based on numerous emails from CR and non-CR members, there certainly

seems to be much justification that the frameset I was auctioning is not a

Holdsworth. While not conclusive, it sure seems that way so I have gone ahead and cancelled my auction. I've written to the individual who comminsioned the respray and then sold it to me. As I find out more I'll

update the list.

Thanks for all the info to date.

Happy Holiday's to all.

Eric Elman
Bummed and embarrased at the moment
Somers, CT USA


----- Original Message -----
From: "kevin sayles"
To:
Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 12:23 PM
Subject: Re: [CR]eBay Holdsworth Questions



> Hello Eric,
> Maybe I can help with the ID of your 'Holdsworth'
>
> My first 6 years framebuilding where with Bob Jackson [before I moved on
  
> to Woodrup's]
> It certainly does look like a BJ or Merlin.......the Merlin range as I
> recall where exactly the same as a BJ, but where supposed to be of a
> cheaper price range, even though we made them in the same manner as a BJ,
  
> or even a JRJ [John Robert Jackson]
>
> The rear brake bridge as quite a large center boss, which I remember,
> though I can't remember now if this was a later style to the smaller boss
> or the other way round.
>
> As for 'scalloping the rear stays'.........just a bit of careful use of a
> vice actually!
>
> Regarding the two numbers, I suspect 2259 is the actual frame # wheras 41 2
> is the # the frame shop stamped on renovations for the paint shop
> records, [ I hated this method as it made the frame appear second hand or
  
> certainly not a new one anymore!]
>
> Incidently having looked at the Merlin on eBay I remember brazing on thos e
> rings at the top of the down tube for bar controls, amazing there still o n
> as they where prone to getting snapped off!
>
> Wonder why it was spayed up as a Holdsworth?
>
> Cheers
> Kevin Sayles. Bridgwater Somerset UK
>
>
> ---- Original Message -----
> From: "Eric Elman" <tr4play@cox.net>
> To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 3:26 PM
> Subject: [CR]eBay Holdsworth Questions
>
>
>> Hello List,
>>
>> The Holdsworth frame which I have listed on ebay (120352861564) has
>> raised a few questions from one ebay member in particular. He writes,
>> respecfully:
>>
>> Hello again,
>> After further research, this appears to be a Bob Jackson produced Merlin.
>> The serial number is formatted as a Jackson, and not at all like a
>> Holdsworth, even considering known variances. See current e-bay listing
>> number 270319751498 for a BJ Merlin fastback. There should be a brazed on
>> rear brake bridge, and the seat lug taper is different from the
>> Holdsworth. The wheelbase is not correct for a Super Mistral, probably
>> owing to the front fork. It has no eyelets as on rear, and may be fom a
>> Holdsworth Pro. This is a very interesting and vintage British frame, but
>> not what I believed it to be. I must respectfully retract my bid.
>>
>> The frame and fork are both stamped "412" while the frame has a secondary
>> stamp of "2259." This would indicate to me the fork is original to the
>> bike despite the difference in eyelets. The only reference I can find
>> regarding wheelbase is the 1963 Mistral having a 41" wheelbase but
>> certainly it could have been shortened up by the 1970's as most all
>> builders were doing.
>>
>> Either way, I would be most appreciative of any comments or points for me
>> and potential buyers to be aware of.
>>
>> I have updated my listing accordingly but may need to cancel it depending
>> on further feedback from this list.
>>
>> Thanks in advance,
>>
>> Eric 'do not want to decieve' Elman