Re: [CR]Holdsworth Auction Cancelled


Example: Bike Shops:R.E.W. Reynolds

Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 16:39:31 +0000
From: Hilary Stone <hilary.stone@blueyonder.co.uk>
To: Eric Elman <tr4play@cox.net>
Subject: Re: [CR]Holdsworth Auction Cancelled
References: <587278936.1367311230212276744.JavaMail.javamailuser@localhost> <001f01c9676e$4e7abd60$6401a8c0@acerad993ba82b> <609428731C0A49A7A452C34AA88E9519@kevinPC> <001501c967af$709e2580$6401a8c0@acerad993ba82b>
In-Reply-To: <001501c967af$709e2580$6401a8c0@acerad993ba82b>
cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org

I am afraid I am going to set the cat amongst the pigeons as I don't think there's any doubt in my mind that this frame was built by Holdsworthy and was essentially the same spec as a Holdsworth Super Mistral Fastback. The Holdsworthy company built frames for many shops around the country (and especially so in the London area) and these frames often do not carry a Holdsworth frame number. I have had a couple of Ken Ryall frames which were Holdsworthy built but had a frame number specific to the shop whose transfer they carried.

The way in which the fastback is carried out and the other details of this frame all shout Holdsworth to me, certainly not Bob Jackson. The problem seems to lie in the fact that it was originally sold as a Bob Addy and would have carried his transfers which may well be impossible to get. Whether the frame should have been repainted as a Holdsworth is another question which I would not attempt to answer. But this frame did I am certain come from the Holdsworthy factory. The question over the wheelbase is quite spurious as alternative geometries were offered by Holdsworth for this frame. I have seen several different designs for seatstay bridges from Holdsworth - in the case of fastback stays it is very difficult to put a curved bridge in as there is substantially less width so the idea that it should be curved is I think quite wrong.

Hilary Stone, Bristol, United Kingdom

Eric Elman wrote:
> Well, based on numerous emails from CR and non-CR members, there
> certainly seems to be much justification that the frameset I was
> auctioning is not a Holdsworth. While not conclusive, it sure seems
> that way so I have gone ahead and cancelled my auction. I've written to
> the individual who comminsioned the respray and then sold it to me. As
> I find out more I'll update the list.
>
> Thanks for all the info to date.
>
> Happy Holiday's to all.
>
> Eric Elman
> Bummed and embarrased at the moment
> Somers, CT USA
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "kevin sayles"
> <kevinsayles@tiscali.co.uk>
> To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 12:23 PM
> Subject: Re: [CR]eBay Holdsworth Questions
>
>
>> Hello Eric,
>> Maybe I can help with the ID of your 'Holdsworth'
>>
>> My first 6 years framebuilding where with Bob Jackson [before I moved
>> on to Woodrup's]
>> It certainly does look like a BJ or Merlin.......the Merlin range as I
>> recall where exactly the same as a BJ, but where supposed to be of a
>> cheaper price range, even though we made them in the same manner as a
>> BJ, or even a JRJ [John Robert Jackson]
>>
>> The rear brake bridge as quite a large center boss, which I remember,
>> though I can't remember now if this was a later style to the smaller
>> boss or the other way round.
>>
>> As for 'scalloping the rear stays'.........just a bit of careful use
>> of a vice actually!
>>
>> Regarding the two numbers, I suspect 2259 is the actual frame # wheras
>> 412 is the # the frame shop stamped on renovations for the paint shop
>> records, [ I hated this method as it made the frame appear second hand
>> or certainly not a new one anymore!]
>>
>> Incidently having looked at the Merlin on eBay I remember brazing on
>> those rings at the top of the down tube for bar controls, amazing
>> there still on as they where prone to getting snapped off!
>>
>> Wonder why it was spayed up as a Holdsworth?
>>
>> Cheers
>> Kevin Sayles. Bridgwater Somerset UK
>>
>>
>> ---- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Elman" <tr4play@cox.net>
>> To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
>> Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 3:26 PM
>> Subject: [CR]eBay Holdsworth Questions
>>
>>
>>> Hello List,
>>>
>>> The Holdsworth frame which I have listed on ebay (120352861564) has
>>> raised a few questions from one ebay member in particular. He
>>> writes, respecfully:
>>>
>>> Hello again,
>>> After further research, this appears to be a Bob Jackson produced
>>> Merlin. The serial number is formatted as a Jackson, and not at all
>>> like a Holdsworth, even considering known variances. See current
>>> e-bay listing number 270319751498 for a BJ Merlin fastback. There
>>> should be a brazed on rear brake bridge, and the seat lug taper is
>>> different from the Holdsworth. The wheelbase is not correct for a
>>> Super Mistral, probably owing to the front fork. It has no eyelets as
>>> on rear, and may be fom a Holdsworth Pro. This is a very interesting
>>> and vintage British frame, but not what I believed it to be. I must
>>> respectfully retract my bid.
>>>
>>> The frame and fork are both stamped "412" while the frame has a
>>> secondary stamp of "2259." This would indicate to me the fork is
>>> original to the bike despite the difference in eyelets. The only
>>> reference I can find regarding wheelbase is the 1963 Mistral having a
>>> 41" wheelbase but certainly it could have been shortened up by the
>>> 1970's as most all builders were doing.
>>>
>>> Either way, I would be most appreciative of any comments or points
>>> for me and potential buyers to be aware of.
>>>
>>> I have updated my listing accordingly but may need to cancel it
>>> depending on further feedback from this list.
>>>
>>> Thanks in advance,
>>>
>>> Eric 'do not want to decieve' Elman