Re: [CR] Raleigh Professional - some corrections

(Example: Framebuilders:Alberto Masi)

Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 20:03:03 +0000
From: "Hilary Stone" <>
To: <>
References: <>
In-Reply-To: <>
Cc: Bob Freitas <>, CLASSIC RENDEZVOUS <>
Subject: Re: [CR] Raleigh Professional - some corrections

Several points need to be corrected. Raleigh bought Carlton in 1960 and the Carlton Worksop works subsequently made sports and racing frames for the entire Raleigh group including many sold under the Sun label. The vast majority until 1974 were gaspipe specials... Raleigh then moved the gaspipe bikes into the main Nottingham works. Raleigh used all the names they possessed in different markets according to how they thought they would sell... Hence the existence of Dunelt bikes in the USA (when completely forgotten in the UK) and Triumph on racers in the US in the 1980s (when racers under the Triumph name had not been seen in the UK since the 1930s). Other names were used in Europe. Raleigh did not really kill off Carlton; Carlton was used as a marque in the UK well into the 1980s. The Pro was a design of the Carlton works but its origins date back into the mid 1960s ... it was originally sold as Raleigh, then became a Carlton in the UK before the Raleigh name was used in the US and finally for one or two years in the UK before the Team Pros. Raleigh acquired Carlton precisely because they were determined to get some race and lightweight design expertise which they got by the bucketfull with Gerald O'Donovan who was part of the family that owned Carlton - he stayed on with Raleigh until the mid 1990s... When first used to race on the continent the Pro design showed some shortcomings so Gerald redesigned it with feedback from the Ti-Raleigh team and the Team Pro became one of the most well refined race designs of the 70s...

Hilary Stone, Bristol, British Isles

Jerome & Elizabeth Moos wrote:
> The Pro was a Carlton design. I think it was first badged as Raleigh (but with a couple of Carlton decals as well) in the mostly white 69/70 version. However, the original Carlton design did not have the Brampton fastback stays. That came in the 70's under Raleigh ownership, although I think those bikes, or at least some of them, were still being built at Worksop, so one might argue they were still a Carlton design, even though Carlton was now a part of Raleigh. It seems the transition from Carlton to Raleigh was a gradual one that took about 15 years. One could probably argue for several events as the end of the Carlton era. The opening of Ilkston, the fire at Worksop, the final closing of Worksop, the appearance of the Team Pro with no Carlton markings, or the disappearance of Carlton markings from all high end Raleighs. AFAIK, all these events took place at different times in the 70's. In the early 70's all the high end Raleighs, the Pro,
> International, Competition and Grand Sport carried Carlton decals in addition Raleigh, unless they were the specific Carlton versions of several of these, which would carry Carlton markings only. And AFAIK, they were all made at Worksop until Ilkston opened, and several of them for some years after that. I believe the Team Pro was the first high-end Raleigh after the Carlton acquistion not to carry Carlton markings. (There were a couple of strange models in the mid-70's like a revival of the RRA and a Truimph-badged pro bike, but I don't know if these predated the Team Pro). Several 531 models continued to carry Carlton markings into the mid and perhaps late 70's but I'm not sure that continued as late a 1980. I think is fair to say that most of the bikes we think of as classic Raleighs, with the exception of the Team Pro, were essentially Carltons.
> Regards,
> Jerry Moos
> Big Spring, Texas, USA
> --- On Mon, 2/23/09, Eric Meddaugh <> wrote:
>> From: Eric Meddaugh <>
>> Subject: Re: [CR] Raleigh Professional
>> To: "Bob Freitas" <>, "CLASSIC RENDEZVOUS" <>
>> Date: Monday, February 23, 2009, 11:08 PM
>> Didn't the Raleigh Pro come before the Team bike? I
>> thought the Pros (especially the ones with the Brampton
>> "fast back" seat cluster) were an inherited design
>> from Carlton. Then when Raleigh killed off Carlton the Team
>> bikes showed up. I've probably got it all wrong but am
>> sure you can help me with the dates...
>> Eric Meddaugh
>> San Carlos, CA usa
>> ________________________________
>> From: Bob Freitas <>
>> <>
>> Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 6:25:57 PM
>> Subject: Re: [CR] Raleigh Professional
>> I am sure this has been hashed over before
>> but my experience is that the smaller frame sizes had longer
>> top tubes so the 2 I had were something like
>> 21''seat tube and 22 or even 22 1/2 TT
>> also the head angles were slack so the had lots of wheel
>> flop. The TEAM bikes were the real racers and the Pro s were
>> more Poser bikes (not to offend anyone)
>> who owns a TEAM and a TWENTY but thats all in MILL