Re: [CR] FR versus ITAL versus ENG versus JAPAN...

(Example: Framebuilders:Cecil Behringer)

In-Reply-To: <mailman.9931.1237780548.337.classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
References:
From: "Jon Spangler" <hudsonspangler@earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 00:53:00 -0700
To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
Subject: Re: [CR] FR versus ITAL versus ENG versus JAPAN...


Bikies,

I do not want to add fuel to any flame wars here, but I have noticed definite differences between many higher-end bikes that I have ridden, and I believe that a reasonable person (meaning a relatively skilled cyclist who is sensitive to handling characteristics, as those Bob Shackelford enumerated) can discern these differences relatively easily. (Jan and his BQ crew recently did some relatively objective frame testing that produced test results that support this.)

(NOTE: I do NOT recommend any manner of "blindfolded" or "double- blind" testing for safety reasons. Similarly, no one should one ride a bicycle after a day of wine tasting in Napa or Sonoma.)

While I am no expert on this, I suspect that our respective body types, riding styles, emotional and psychological makeups, ages, and a host of other individual variables will also affect our choices in "feel" and our ratings of particular handling characteristics one over the other. In short, cycling is an intensely personal and individualized sport, and there are many physical and emotional factors that affect our individual choices of bikes, components, and handling characteristics.

Having noted the individualistic nature of evaluating the "feel" or "ride" of a particular bike, I believe a strong case can be made for the "nationalistic" or "cultural" view of design, including bicycles. Culture expresses itself in many ways, and one of those manifestations is in the "flavor" of the goods we design and manufacture. (Most of us can recognize cultural similarities among cars designed by different US companies that differentiate them from their German-designed counterparts, for instance.) It may also be extremely important to distinguish between various eras or periods of bike and frame design within each "design culture." The English racing frames of the 1920s-1930s are not the same as the English racing frames of the 1960s or the 1970s, for instance. History counts. Design cultures, just like music or visual arts, are influenced by both domestic innovation and foreign invasions.

It is not surprising to me that the French bikes I have owned and ridden all seem to share a similar "feel." My UO-18 mixte feels much like it has the same cultural and design "genes" that my PX-10s did, or the Motobecanes and Gitanes I have ridden. Indeed, I bought my still-unridden mid-1970s Allegro (Swiss) based on many assurances that it would "feel" French or "continental, because it used the same metric 531 tubes and came from a French-speaking canton of Switzerland. And it had the frame dimensions to prove it, too: long 55 CM TT on a 52 CM c-c SEAT, relaxed angles (versus most ITAL or some BRIT frames of the same period), long (42 CM) stays, etc.

I would never buy a Miyata, an Austro-Daimler, a TREK, a Cinelli, or a Masi and expect it to ride like a Peugeot PX-10LE. And I'll bet that no one would confuse an Alan or my Eisentraut for one, either. But you could get noticeably closer to a PX with a comparable Gitane or Motobecane, IMHO, and these subtle differences would be discernible. Likewise, I suspect that a defensible definition of an "Italian bike design school" principles or themes could be developed that would account for most of the similarities between at least the major concurrent builders of Italian bikes such as Colnago, Cinelli, Masi, Poghliahi, Benotto, Atala, etc.

(It does not matter, for my purposes here, whether one uses a relatively scientific evaluation method or a personal and subjective one. Both are equally valid, and the results should be comparable, given a sufficiently sophisticated testing methodology, if such a thing were to be developed. But in a sense, it is irrelevant.)

Some of us are engineers and scientists who measure everything technically: wheel weight in grams, understeer/oversteer i bike handling, trail, modulus of elasticity, tensile strength, etc. Others of us (I am a sensate and intuitive type) evaluate things by "feel," visual impact, risk aversion or thrill-seeking, or some other non-rational method (s). All of them are valid, and none of us are the same, so our individual mileage WILL vary, as has been said here before.

The good news is that there is still room enough for all of us in Dale's Garage--as long as we behave, and as long as everyone acknowledges that I'm always right. (wink, wink!)

Jon Spangler up too late in Alameda, CA USA

On Mar 22, 2009, at 8:55 PM, <classicrendezvous-request@bikelist.org> wrote:
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 20:26:34 -0700
> From: donald gillies <gillies@ece.ubc.ca>
> Subject: Re: [CR] Ride Report on early 80's Zunow
> To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> Cc: jerrymoos@sbcglobal.net
> Message-ID: <20090323032634.C82A8EC89@ug14.ece.ubc.ca>
> Content-Type: text/plain
>
> Jerry,
>
> to coin a Geico term, we have a lot of junior members on CR and also
> "Cave Men" who have not ridden all those marquees that you apparently
> have in your stable. And actually, I have never ridden an italian
> bike, unless of course you consider my ALAN to be a typical italian
> bike, and I never ridden a french bike, except perhaps for a peugeot
> mixte that belonged to a neighbor's mom and that I tried for a few
> minutes when I was 15 and I thought it had a spectacular ride.
>
> So to me, you're saying the bike feels more like a carbon-steel
> Peugeot Mixte with Simplex Delrin gears, than it feels like my
> Super-Record ALAN ?? Is that the message you are trying to get
> across??
>
> I honestly don't know what it means to say, "The bike feels more
> Italian the French" ... Could you please elaborate? Thanx.
>
> - Don "Cave Man" Gillies
> San Diego, CA, USA
>
>
>

Jon Spangler
Writer/Editor
Linda Hudson Writing
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MOBILE 510-846-5356
hudsonspangler@earthlink.net
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