Well with this I've again consumed my daily allotment of posts just on wet saddles.
But I have heard a caveat offline. One member reports when he soaked an old very dry Ideale, it ripped at the rivet hole. Now it would seem this could only happen when the saddle dried, if the wetting then drying greatly increased tension versus what it had been before. Someone else sent a link to Mike Barry's blog where he describes restoring a very old trashed saddle. In that case he mentioned he had completely loosened the nose bolt and removed from the frame, although he doesn't say why, perhaps just to make reshaping easier. But if there is a danger of the soaked then dried saddle greatly increasing tension, then one could presumably play it safe by backing off the tension either before beginning or while the saddle is wet, before it begins to try.
As I said before, I'm not the expert on this, only a guy reporting my own successes. Maybe the real experts can weigh in on whether one should detension a saddle in some cases to guard against excess increase in tension. I haven't seen the problem with these half dozen saddles, but that doesn't mean it can't happen.
BTW, I've discovered my alloy rail Ideale 59, which could be as old as the 40's, has a 15mm nose bolt. Most 60's and newer saddles use 14mm. The special wrench for the TI Swallow seems to be 16mm. Anyone know of a wrench that works well on a 15mm nose bolt?
One final subject - a French eBay seller of many Ideale saddles also sells a lot of leather tops only for Ideale saddles. Not surprisingly the hot market for Ideale saddles is Japan - Dave Abraham who recently received $455 for a well used alloy model 59 reports the three highest bidders were Japanese collectors. They are very selective as always, and the models that bring big bucks are those which were available with alloy rails and which are old enough to have appeared on French constructeur bikes during the Technical Trial era. The most favored models seem to be mod 57, mod 54 and mod 59, with an NOS eaxmple sometimes bringing close to a grand.
Not surprisingly the French seller also gets top dollar (or top euro)for the leather tops alone for these same models, sometime over $300 for just the leather top. But I was able to pick up a couple of his leather tops for less favored models like mod 41 and mod 44 for MUCH MUCH less. Question is what to do with them. Does anyone in the US recover saddles? I know Tony Colegrave in UK does, but he has been extremely busy of late. I thought CyclArt offered this service at one time. Also, where does one obtain the rivets, and how hard is it to install a leather cover with rivets? Maybe we need another demo at Cirque on hammering rivets on leather saddles.
Regards,
Jerry Moos
Big Spring, Texas, USA
> From: nicbordeaux <nicbordeaux@yahoo.fr>
\r?\n> Subject: Re: [CR] saddle soggers
\r?\n> To: mitch.harris531@gmail.com, classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
\r?\n> Date: Thursday, May 28, 2009, 4:49 PM
\r?\n>
\r?\n> Thx for the info Mitch, it does seem from your link a text
\r?\n> that moisture doesn't mean "dead" leather. I'm just a litle
\r?\n> concerned that things may be a little more complex than
\r?\n> totally soaking the leather all the way through, then drying
\r?\n> it in the sun and rubbing in some oil. In other words, some
\r?\n> expertise may be required, as with most "mechanical" or
\r?\n> specialized tasks. Anyway, people are sensible, I guess
\r?\n> we'll all be trying this technique out on otherwise
\r?\n> completely shot leather saddles.
\r?\n> Thx again
\r?\n> Nick March, Agen 47000, France
\r?\n>
\r?\n>
\r?\n>
\r?\n> --- En date de : Jeu 28.5.09, mitch harris <mitch.harris531@gmail.com>
\r?\n> a écrit :
\r?\n>
\r?\n> > De: mitch harris <mitch.harris531@gmail.com>
\r?\n> > Objet: Re: [CR] saddle soggers
\r?\n> > À: "nicbordeaux" <nicbordeaux@yahoo.fr>
\r?\n> > Cc:
\r?\n> > Date: Jeudi 28 Mai 2009, 23h05
\r?\n> > On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 2:34 PM,
\r?\n> > nicbordeaux <nicbordeaux@yahoo.fr>
\r?\n> > wrote:
\r?\n> >
\r?\n> > > Don't doubt for an instant that soaking a
\r?\n> leather
\r?\n> > saddle thoroughly will make it supple, and the
\r?\n> expansion, as
\r?\n> > with wood, will "seal" the cracks quite a bit. But a
\r?\n> little
\r?\n> > worried about what happens further down the road. An
\r?\n> ex o'
\r?\n> > mine who is a leather expert in the shoe industry said
\r?\n> I was
\r?\n> > off my rocker if I soaked leather, because when it
\r?\n> starts to
\r?\n> > really dry out it will be about as tough as a piece
\r?\n> of
\r?\n> > cardboard. She explicitly said that the leather would
\r?\n> be
\r?\n> > irreversably damaged, no ifs or buts.
\r?\n> > >
\r?\n> >
\r?\n> > This reasonable concern may arise from the possibility
\r?\n> that
\r?\n> > water
\r?\n> > soaking removed some of the oil content of the
\r?\n> > leather. This may need
\r?\n> > to be restored after soaking and fully drying.
\r?\n> >
\r?\n> > Some leather care advise on this worth reading is
\r?\n> Peter
\r?\n> > Limmer's
\r?\n> > instructions for caring for the hiking and
\r?\n> mountaineering
\r?\n> > boots he
\r?\n> > makes.
\r?\n> >
\r?\n> > http://www.limmerboot.com/
\r?\n> >
\r?\n> > Click on "boots."
\r?\n> > Boot leather is used differently from saddle leather,
\r?\n> of
\r?\n> > course.
\r?\n> > Brooks/Ideals wear exclusively in tension while
\r?\n> hiking
\r?\n> > boots are in
\r?\n> > tension, compression, repetitive wrinkling/bending,
\r?\n> so
\r?\n> > cracks that
\r?\n> > open in Brooks happen for different reasons perhaps
\r?\n> that
\r?\n> > cracks in
\r?\n> > boots. But Limmer's explanations helped me see the
\r?\n> > relationship
\r?\n> > between moisture and oil in leather.
\r?\n> >
\r?\n> > Mitch Harris
\r?\n> > Little Rock Canyon, Utah, USA
\r?\n> > _______________________________________
\r?\n> > Basic Care:
\r?\n> >
\r?\n> > *Ensuring maximum use: It has been said that more
\r?\n> fine
\r?\n> > boots have been
\r?\n> > ruined through neglect than through use. Having made
\r?\n> the
\r?\n> > investment of
\r?\n> > purchasing top quality hiking or backpacking boots,
\r?\n> > customers can
\r?\n> > ensure maximum life and superior performance from
\r?\n> their
\r?\n> > boots by
\r?\n> > exercising proper care. Correct boot maintenance
\r?\n> includes
\r?\n> > treating
\r?\n> > boots with a substance that conditions and waterproofs
\r?\n> the
\r?\n> > leather.
\r?\n> >
\r?\n> > * Softening leather: Limmer recommends the use of
\r?\n> animal
\r?\n> > based
\r?\n> > preparations of a paste or grease nature to soften
\r?\n> the
\r?\n> > leather on
\r?\n> > Standard, Midweight or Lightweight Limmer Boots only.
\r?\n> (In
\r?\n> > some cases,
\r?\n> > natural liquid oils can saturate leather causing it
\r?\n> to
\r?\n> > soften too
\r?\n> > much.) The stoutness of these Limmer boots makes
\r?\n> softening
\r?\n> > leather,
\r?\n> > particularly during the break-in period, desirable.
\r?\n> Only an
\r?\n> > extremely
\r?\n> > over zealous applicator could oversoften these Limmer
\r?\n> > products.
\r?\n> >
\r?\n> > * Caring for Ultralights: For the 2.4 mm lighter
\r?\n> weight
\r?\n> > leather of a
\r?\n> > Limmer Ultralight, there is a danger leather could
\r?\n> stretch
\r?\n> > and lose
\r?\n> > its supportive structure. For this product, Limmer
\r?\n> > recommends the use
\r?\n> > of applications specially designed for Nubuk or suede
\r?\n> > leather.
\r?\n> >
\r?\n> > * Caring for Walkers: In the case of the Limmer
\r?\n> Walker, a
\r?\n> > soft creme
\r?\n> > polish combined with the occasional Limmer
\r?\n> conditioning
\r?\n> > mentioned
\r?\n> > above is recommended.
\r?\n> >
\r?\n> > * Using straight oils: The use of straight oils, such
\r?\n> as
\r?\n> > neats foot or
\r?\n> > mink oil in liquid form is not recommended because it
\r?\n> tends
\r?\n> > to
\r?\n> > oversaturate and oversoften leather. Use of these
\r?\n> products,
\r?\n> > over time,
\r?\n> > will cause leather to deteriorate.
\r?\n> >
\r?\n> > * Using wax or petroleum base products: These products
\r?\n> are
\r?\n> > not
\r?\n> > recommended either even though they do provide
\r?\n> > waterproofing. As a
\r?\n> > living thing, leather has pores and these products can
\r?\n> clog
\r?\n> > pores
\r?\n> > Clogging cuts down on a boot's ability to breathe.
\r?\n> Over
\r?\n> > time, these
\r?\n> > products will stiffen the leather and, in this way,
\r?\n> shorten
\r?\n> > its life
\r?\n> > span. Because they don't clog pores, natural animal
\r?\n> oils
\r?\n> > don't dry out
\r?\n> > leather.
\r?\n> >
\r?\n> > * Timing your protection efforts: When Limmer boots
\r?\n> are
\r?\n> > new, don't
\r?\n> > immediately waterproof. Wait until you notice a loss
\r?\n> of
\r?\n> > water
\r?\n> > repellency. When your boots are dry and clean, apply
\r?\n> a
\r?\n> > modest layer of
\r?\n> > grease rubbing it in well. Store your boots in an area
\r?\n> of
\r?\n> > moderate
\r?\n> > temperature and humidity. Stay away from extremes such
\r?\n> as a
\r?\n> > hot dry
\r?\n> > attic or a damp basement.
\r?\n> >
\r?\n> > * Storing your boots: Limmer recommends applying a
\r?\n> layer of
\r?\n> > boot
\r?\n> > conditioner whenever boots are placed in storage with
\r?\n> > another
\r?\n> > application, perhaps, before you use them again.
\r?\n> Limmer's
\r?\n> > own line of
\r?\n> > boot conditioner is a time tested combination of
\r?\n> animal
\r?\n> > paste and
\r?\n> > waterproofing additives. It has repeatedly proven its
\r?\n> > ability to
\r?\n> > provide optimum results and contribute to the
\r?\n> renowned
\r?\n> > longevity of
\r?\n> > Limmer products. Limmer also recommends the use of
\r?\n> wooden
\r?\n> > shoe trees.
\r?\n> >
\r?\n> > Special Care
\r?\n> >
\r?\n> > * Dealing with heat: If your boots become completely
\r?\n> > saturated with
\r?\n> > water, for whatever reason, they should not be allowed
\r?\n> to
\r?\n> > dry with any
\r?\n> > rapidity. When leather dries too quickly, it stiffens
\r?\n> and
\r?\n> > has a
\r?\n> > tendency to crack. Exposure to excessive heat during
\r?\n> the
\r?\n> > drying
\r?\n> > process can burn leather and cause severe,
\r?\n> irrepairable
\r?\n> > damage. Too
\r?\n> > much heat can also reactivate the thermally activated
\r?\n> > adhesives used
\r?\n> > to attach sole to boot in which case soles can loosen
\r?\n> or
\r?\n> > fall off.
\r?\n> >
\r?\n> > * Drying your boots: Drying should be done at a
\r?\n> moderate
\r?\n> > rate, away
\r?\n> > from heat. Once boots are saturated, stuff them with
\r?\n> > newspapers for
\r?\n> > the first day of drying. Change paper, frequently, to
\r?\n> > remove moisture
\r?\n> > and maintain shape.
\r?\n> >
\r?\n> > * Treating your boots: Once they are dry, apply a
\r?\n> moderate
\r?\n> > coat of
\r?\n> > Limmer Boot Conditioner which will also waterproof
\r?\n> the
\r?\n> > leather.
\r?\n> > Include the area of stitching on the welt as well. If
\r?\n> boots
\r?\n> > are new,
\r?\n> > however, the application of any grease must wait until
\r?\n> the
\r?\n> > factory
\r?\n> > applied finish on the boots has worn off or the
\r?\n> application
\r?\n> > will be
\r?\n> > ineffective.
\r?\n> >
\r?\n> > * Treating the interior of your boots: When the
\r?\n> wearer's
\r?\n> > perspiration
\r?\n> > is profuse, there may be a need to treat the interior
\r?\n> of
\r?\n> > the boot. In
\r?\n> > such cases, an occasional very light application of
\r?\n> > Limmer's boot
\r?\n> > conditioner would prove valuable provided the person
\r?\n> does
\r?\n> > not
\r?\n> > overapply it.
\r?\n> >
\r?\n> > * Life expectancy: With proper care and conditioning,
\r?\n> the
\r?\n> > life
\r?\n> > expectancy of a Limmer boot can be 10-15 years and
\r?\n> some
\r?\n> > owners claim
\r?\n> > their boots have lasted up to 25 years. At least half
\r?\n> the
\r?\n> > reason for
\r?\n> > such success is proper conditioning. Neglect or abuse
\r?\n> of a
\r?\n> > Limmer
\r?\n> > product will cause the same incidence of failure as
\r?\n> would
\r?\n> > afflict
\r?\n> > anything else that has been abused. Neglect and/or
\r?\n> abuse
\r?\n> > are not
\r?\n> > covered under the boot's warranty.