Re: [CR] Cinelli bars 26.4 diam. old logo 46 or 44 ??? (...mea culpa)


Example: Framebuilders:Chris Pauley

Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 17:19:48 +0100
From: Hilary Stone <hilary.stone@blueyonder.co.uk>
To: <rsb000@hotmail.com>
References: <BLU0-SMTP21769A749873A86D1BC4819C160@phx.gbl>
In-Reply-To:
Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
Subject: Re: [CR] Cinelli bars 26.4 diam. old logo 46 or 44 ??? (...mea culpa)


Just to add to the info and perhaps confuse I do have a pair of bars with 80s logo which are marked 65/44 and which have a single groove so probably actually date from 1990/1...

Hilary Stone, Bristol, British Isles

R.S. Broderick wrote:
> I suppose that it is time for me to slow down, collect my wits, quit trying
> to intersperse messages typed to the CR List in between concentrating on
> organizing and packaging for our household move, and pay full attention to
> what I am posting to this forum - lest I otherwise end up leaving everyone
> with the impression that I have decidedly gone daft.
>
> To that end, I pulled out those Cinelli catalogs once again, only this time,
> I did so in conjunction with having collected several sets of their various
> styles of handlebars and a proper fabric tape measure. In retrospect, I can
> only offer as some form of excuse / explanation that not only was I somewhat
> hurried and distracted when I made my earlier postings to the CR List on
> this subject, but also that the Cinelli catalogs themselves are less than
> crystal clear when presenting measurements associated with their various
> handlebar options. Specifically, they use an "A", "B", "C", "D" set of
> designations for the respective distances cited ... without telling anyone
> what the "A", "B", "C", and "D" labels actually refer to. It is assumed or
> implied that you, the reader, know which is which and what is what. So,
> when I quickly scanned said catalogs for specifics, I mistakenly used the
> wrong column (...i.e. the "D" column - you know, as in "D" for "drop") to
> reference the relative difference measurement between the models 63 and 66
> Campione del Mondo handlebars resulting in my providing errant information.
> In actuality, there would be a 9 mm and not 10 mm difference in drop between
> the model 63 Campione del Mondo (...i.e. 147 mm) and the model 66 Campione
> del Mondo (...i.e. 156 mm) ... AND ... yes, Kevin, you would be correct that
> the model 66 has the deeper drop of the two.
>
> A full and (...hopefully on my part) final accounting is as follows:
>
> MODEL 38 39 40 42
> -------------- --------- --------- --------- ---------
> Width "D" Width "D" Width "D" Width "D" Drop Reach
> ----- --- ----- --- ----- --- ----- --- ---- -----
> 63 - CdM 380 220 400 240 147 76
> 64 - Giro 380 220 400 240 142 78
> 65 - Criterium 380 120 400 140 147 77
> 66 - CdM 380 210 400 230 420 250 156 90
> 67 - Pista 390 108 163 83
>
> I have taken the liberty of "translating" the "A" (...i.e. width), "B"
> (...i.e. drop), and "C" (...i.e. reach) references from those Cinelli
> catalogs in the above chart. However, I am still stuck for interpreting
> just what the "D" designation refers to. If anyone out there either knows
> definitively or has reasoned conjecture they might be willing offer, any
> input would be greatly appreciated.
>
> -----> pre 1979 Cino Cinelli era (...i.e. crested logo - NOT flying "C")
>
> model 14 - Pista (steel) - sizes: 38
> model 19 - Pista (steel) - sizes: 38
> model 63 - Campione del Mondo (alloy) - sizes: 38 / 40
> model 64 - Giro d'Italia (alloy) - sizes: 38 / 40
> model 65 - Criterium (alloy) - sizes: 38 / 40
> model 66 - Campione del Mondo (alloy) - sizes: 38 / 40 / 42
> model 67 - Pista (alloy) - sizes: 39
>
> -----> post 1978 A.L. Columbo / Columbus era (...i.e. flying "C" logo
> -----> through the mid 1980's - NOT the earlier crested logo)
>
> model 63 - Campione del Mondo - sizes: 38 / 40
> model 64 - Giro d'Italia - sizes: 38 / 40
> model 65 - Criterium - sizes: 38 / 40
> model 66 - Campione del Mondo - sizes: 38 / 40 / 42
> model 67 - Pista - sizes: 39
>
> Please note that for purposes of the aforementioned figures, width, reach,
> and drop are all measured from C-t-C of the respective tubes.
>
> Robert "Haste Makes Waste ... of CR List bandwidth" Broderick
> ...the "Frozen Flatlands" of South Dakota
> Sioux Falls, USA
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: kevin sayles [mailto:kevinsayles@tiscali.co.uk]
> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 3:02 AM
> To: rsb000@hotmail.com; classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> Subject: Re: [CR] Cinelli bars 26.4 diam. old logo 46 or 44 ???
> (...meaculpa)
>
> Hi Robert,
> Should that read '10mm drop'? [you wrote 10 cm].......and actually its the
> other way round, 66 [Merckx] bars are the deeper of the two [63].
>
> No one has mentioned the 'other' logo......its not the 'flying C as in it
> has CINELLI stamped both sides........this logo is hard to describe, but I
> think it has on the RH side a logo that looks a bit like a sun dial, or a
> wheel with diamond spokes?........I have a couple of pair, one in # 64 Giro
> D Italia [before they ruined the shape!!] and one pair in #
> 66...........question is, which came first, this logo or the more familular
> 'flying C'?
>
> Cheers Kevin Sayles
> Bridgwater Somerset UK
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "R.S. Broderick" <rsb000@hotmail.com>
> To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 12:36 AM
> Subject: Re: [CR] Cinelli bars 26.4 diam. old logo 46 or 44 ???
> (...meaculpa)
>
>
> Blame it on my withering eye sight (...perhaps I ought seek reading glasses)
> in conjunction with the itty, bitty, little, fine print in one of those
> Cinelli catalogs, but I was incorrect in my earlier accounting ... AND ... I
> want to update the record for posterity as follows:
>
> Wayne is pretty much "on target" with his assessment regarding vintage
> Cinelli bar widths. I guess that I would like to interject for the record a
> tad more specificity with respect to said measurements so that there is less
> room for ambiguity in the future when this subject matter invariably
> resurfaces once again (...i.e. check the archives in the future):
>
> -----> pre 1979 Cino Cinelli era (...i.e. crested logo - NOT flying "C")
>
> model 63 - sizes: 38 / 40
> model 64 - sizes: 38 / 40
> model 65 - sizes: 38 / 40
> model 66 - sizes: 38 / 40 / 42
> model 67 - sizes: 38
>
> -----> post 1978 A.L. Columbo / Columbus era (...i.e. flying "C" logo
> -----> through the mid 1980's - NOT the earlier crested logo)
>
> model 63 - Campione del Mondo - sizes: 38 / 40
> model 64 - Giro d'Italia - sizes: 38 / 40
> model 65 - Criterium - sizes: 38 / 40
> model 66 - Campione del Mondo - sizes: 38 / 40 / 42
> model 67 - Pista - sizes: 39
>
> All of the above data points were culled directly from original Cinelli
> catalog and/or brochure publications. It is perhaps worthy to note that
> only the model 66 version of the Campione del Mondo was made available prior
> to the mid 1980's in the larger 42 cm sizing (...I happen to have a pre 1979
> crested logo 66 / 42 designated for use on my 1977 Peugeot PY-10/CP Thevenet
> TdF replica). And in response to an "OFF LIST" question I received, the
> difference between the model 63 and 66 handlebars which are both given the
> Campione del Mondo "name" designation would be the size of the drop where
> the model 63 is 10 cm deeper than its model 66 counterpart. Finally,
> Cinelli uses the traditional C-t-C measurement standard for all of their
> handlebars as opposed to the O-t-O methodology employed by 3ttt - which
> means that one need take care whenever comparing widths stipulated by those
> two respective manufacturers.
>
> Robert "I see said the blind man as he picked up his hammer and saw"
> Broderick
> ...the "Frozen Flatlands" of South Dakota
> Sioux Falls, USA
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: classicrendezvous-bounces@bikelist.org
> [mailto:classicrendezvous-bounces@bikelist.org] On Behalf Of Wayne Bingham
> Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 2:44 PM
> To: oroboyz@aol.com
> Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> Subject: Re: [CR] Cinelli bars 26.4 diam. old logo 46 or 44 ???
>
> I had a discussion about this with someone in the past few days, so I
> just pulled my Cinelli catalogs (still organizing and filing all this
> valuable stuff from the MPI acquisition), and here's what I've found.
>
> An earlier catalog lists model 63, 64, 65, 66 & 67, and only in widths
> of 38, 39, 40 & 42 (c-c). A slightly later catalog adds a 44 width.
> No mention of 46. This sort of validates my somewhat sketchy memory.