Re: [CR] Fw: Re: Strong/Longlived Wheels

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References: <548533.13656.qm@web82202.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2009 08:53:30 -0700
From: "Kurt Sperry" <haxixe@gmail.com>
To: Robert Goughary <goughary@yahoo.com>
Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
Subject: Re: [CR] Fw: Re: Strong/Longlived Wheels


To me there seem to be two places on a bicycle where weight really negatively impacts the ride: up high, stem, bars seatpost, saddle. And especially in the wheels where weight gives a dead feel in the pedals. I'd reckon if there's anywhere on a bike to think about losing any excess weight it'd be rims, tubes and tires. I doubt the hubs make a lot of difference.

My "wont die" wheel story is on an off-topic bike but built from very on-topic MA-2 rims. I built the front wheel around 15 years ago and it has seen hard use- including reckless off-road and curb jumping aplenty- ever since and is still spinning round and true. I think I've had it on the truing stand maybe twice in those 15 years. I'm not sure what it might take to wreck a 36 spoke MA-2 front wheel. It'd probably involve a trip to the ER.

Kurt Sperry Bellingham, Washington USA

2009/8/26 Robert Goughary <goughary@yahoo.com>:
>
> Maybe a dumb question - but - with all this discussion about stronger wheels - Wouldn't it be better, and stronge rto not worry about the weight of the rim, spokes, nipples, etc, and use a strong rim, whatever is the appropriate spoke guage, brass nipples, 36 spokes minumum, and then have the rider lose a few pounds if one were worried about weight? I ride a few bikes - a super light off-topic Look, an on-topic Cilo that I picked up recently, and my newly finished MysteryBike from 1958-62 (or thereabouts) - they get significantly heavier as they get older, and significantly more fun...I've been building wheels for a short time, but it seems to me that the question of strengh is more one of "just strong enough" when worried about weight, and unless I am in a race where a tenth of a second matters, I'm just not worried about weight, within a few pounds here and there...In fact - the heavier bikes feal better than the Look by far. And I prefer to not have
>  to ride on such high spoke tension. Too much vibration.
>
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> Rob Goughary
> Stamford, CT
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> --- On Tue, 8/25/09, Pacific Coast Cycles <paccoastcycles@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> From: Pacific Coast Cycles <paccoastcycles@sbcglobal.net>
>> Subject: [CR] Fw: Re:  Strong/Longlived Wheels
>> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
>> Date: Tuesday, August 25, 2009, 11:33 PM
>>
>>
>> --- On Sun, 8/23/09, Pacific Coast Cycles <paccoastcycles@sbcglobal.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> From: Pacific Coast Cycles <paccoastcycles@sbcglobal.net>
>> Subject: Fw: Re: [CR] Strong/Longlived Wheels
>> To: classicrenedvouz@bikelist.org
>> Date: Sunday, August 23, 2009, 10:25 PM
>>
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>> --- On Sun, 8/23/09, Pacific Coast Cycles <paccoastcycles@sbcglobal.net>
>> wrote:
>>
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>> From: Pacific Coast Cycles <paccoastcycles@sbcglobal.net>
>> Subject: Re: [CR] Strong/Longlived Wheels
>> To: "donald gillies" <gillies@ece.ubc.ca>
>> Cc: gretchbzz@earthlink.net
>> Date: Sunday, August 23, 2009, 10:19 PM
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>> Don, you show a great understanding of wheels and the
>> forces that make them work.
>>
>> I would like to comment on a few statements you made. The
>> guage of the spokes has nothing to do with the resistance of
>> a wheel to pothole deformation. The first line of defense
>> against sharp edged impacts is tire cross section. I am
>> assuming proper tire inflation here.
>>
>> The guage of the spoke has more to do with the life of the
>> spokes. Too light a spoke for the rider or the intended use
>> will result in shorter spoke life.
>>
>> The use of double eyelets is something I've given a lot of
>> thought to. A double eyelet weighs one and a half grams.
>> That's forty eight grams for a thirty two hole rim. Forty
>> eight grams is about ten percent of the weight of a sporty
>> rim. That forty eight grams would be better spent in
>> reinforcing the area of the rim where the nipples reside.
>>
>> Mavic Open Pro rims often crack when built for eight, nine
>> and more speed wheels. Indeed, the rear wheel is the only
>> one I've seen crack. And that is only on the right side. In
>> order to put dual eyelets in the wheel, the hole in the rim
>> is made bigger. On dual eyelets, the size of the "load
>> spreading eyelet" is not big enough to really do that job.
>> If you want to use another piece to spread the load, and
>> that does work, a washer as used by Martano and others
>> actually is big enough to effectively reinforce the load
>> concentration.
>>
>> Even though the double eyelet, when pulling through the
>> rim, pulls through the top or inner layer also, I don't get
>> much comfort from that. Distributing that forty eight grams
>> around the rim in the area that is pulled on by spoke
>> tension prevents the pull through. The hole is smaller and
>> the wall can be thicker for a given weight.
>>
>> You can tell I'm no big fan of rims sporting eyelets.
>> Still, there is an emotional appeal to eyelets and people
>> seem to feel comforted by them. Some people claim that they
>> are a better home for the nipple. There may be some truty in
>> that, but in general, I don't see much benefit to the nipple
>> especially when compared to a crack prone rim. Alloy nipples
>> sometimes lose their heads around this coastal area, but
>> that doesn't seem to be aleviated by using eyelets.
>>
>> One of the things I love about bicycle wheels is that they
>> seem almost like a living thing. There is so much to think
>> about with regard to wheels. Another thing that's pretty
>> cool about them is that almost anybody can build a wheel
>> even if they don't think about the deeper concerns that are
>> designing wheels to a given purpose or rider.
>>
>> In closing, I will say again that it is the tire's cross
>> section in relation to the obstacles put before it, in
>> relation to the weight it carries, that will make a wheel
>> resist denting, or not.
>>
>> Chuck Hoefer
>> Vista, California USA