Re: [CR] Classicrendezvous Digest, Vol 81, Issue 66

(Example: Production Builders:Peugeot:PX-10LE)

From: "Jim Gilchrist" <jim-gilchrist@shaw.ca>
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2768.1253281392.524.classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 06:48:04 -0700
References:
To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
Subject: Re: [CR] Classicrendezvous Digest, Vol 81, Issue 66


On 2009-09-18, at 6:43 AM, classicrendezvous-request@bikelist.org wrote:
> Send Classicrendezvous mailing list submissions to
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>
>
> CR
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: The return of Clement Criterium Seta Extras (Ken Freeman)
> 2. Re: Bottom Bracket Cups & Threads - Why do they stay tight
> or loosen? (Ken Freeman)
> 3. Witches Brew-stuck stuff (Mike Larsen)
> 4. Re: Bottom Bracket Cups & Threads - Why do they stay tight
> or loosen? (M-gineering)
> 5. Re: Bottom Bracket Cups & Threads - Why do they stay tight
> or loosen? (Ken Freeman)
> 6. RIH Framebuilding (Angel Garcia)
> 7. Ebay outing, mine, Columbus chrome NOS front fork and more
> .. (Freek Faro)
> 8. Ebay outing - very different (Tom Beattie)
> 9. Re: RIH Framebuilding (Freek Faro)
> 10. Videos of RIH Framebuilding (oroboyz@aol.com)
> 11. Re: RIH Framebuilding (oroboyz@aol.com)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 11:43:35 +0200
> From: Ken Freeman <kenfreeman096@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [CR] The return of Clement Criterium Seta Extras
> To: donald gillies <gillies@ece.ubc.ca>
> Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> Message-ID:
> <7543b4a40909180243o2ce8a9c7s86d4cbc6b0149243@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
>
> Charles, what other tubulars have you used, other than the Panaracer?
>
> On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 8:13 AM, donald gillies <gillies@ece.ubc.ca>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Clement Ventoux Thai cotton clinchers, with a road-squeegie feel
>> Panaracer Practice 270gm traditional tubulars.
>>
>> Some O.k. tires that are light but don't have a "special road feel" :
>>
>> Panaracer Tourgard 27x1 tires (available in 70's w/o kevlar)
>> Avocet Fasgrip
>> Continental GP3000's
>>
>> - Don Gillies
>> San Diego, CA, USA
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Ken Freeman
> Ann Arbor, MI USA
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 12:16:33 +0200
> From: Ken Freeman <kenfreeman096@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [CR] Bottom Bracket Cups & Threads - Why do they stay
> tight or loosen?
> To: Steve Maas <bikestuff@nonlintec.com>
> Cc: Classic Rendezvous <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> Message-ID:
> <7543b4a40909180316i2c15ea46h4f52c8cee8e47b65@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
>
> On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 9:21 AM, Steve Maas
> <bikestuff@nonlintec.com> wrote:
>
>> Jerome & Elizabeth Moos wrote:
>>
>>
>> .....I've long said that the technically correct ISO BB standard
>> would
>> have been Swiss, since it was metric, and had the correct LH thread o
>> on the fixed cup. But of course that decision was made based on
>> market
>> share, not technical logic. At least the English thread anointed ISO
>> did happen to have the "correct" LH fixed cup as well.
>>
>> It's important to remember that the purpose of standards is to
>> normalize
>> what most people are doing already, not to determine what's best
>> and try to
>> force everyone to do it. That almost never works. On rare occasions
>> when
>> it's been attempted, people just ignore the standard and adhere to
>> some kind
>> of de facto standard, which is established by everyone immitating
>> some
>> common practice.
>>
>> French dimensions are a good example of an attempt to create a
>> standard
>> apart from common practice. We all know how well that went!
>>
>> As for BBs--is the ISO standard based on British dimensions the
>> only one?
>> I'm away from home and my books, so I can't check. There's no
>> reason why
>> there can't be multiple standards for some type of item.
>>
>> Steve Maas
>> G?teborg, Sweden
>>
>>
>> I can attest first hand to this logic of standardization. I'm
>> writing an
> ISO standard in another field, and the primary purpose is to promote
> global
> trade by establishing a common language for design and description of
> products in the relevant domain. There is a great tension between the
> standard writing team and some of the reviewers. Many reviewers
> think that
> the purpose of the standard is to show what is the limit of
> concievable
> technology, the best engineering solution, or what their sponsors
> think is
> best.
>
> Back to BB engineering:
>
> Granted, for BBs with reverse threaded BBs the pedaling torque will
> not be
> in a direction that might loosen the fitting of the BB. But there
> must be
> more going on, because not all BBs have a reversed thread, and of
> those that
> do not, not all of them loosen while in use. If a reversed thread was
> absolutely necessary in all potential cases, we would have to see hub
> locknuts using both a righty-tighty and a lefty-tighty design.
> However,
> they don't.
>
> I'm not an ME, but I am a degreed engineer and pretty good sometimes
> at
> explaining basic physics, so lemme give this a try.
>
> The basic principle of the bolt is what's going on. Bolts hold
> things on
> because when tightened they are stretched springs. The threads pull
> on the
> shaft of a bolt to pull the head hard against its seating surface,
> presumably on the part to be fixed in position. To apply pressure
> to that
> surface, the shaft must pull the bolt head. This stress in the bolt
> shaft
> (and to some degree the head) causes an elastic strain stretching
> the bolt
> by some amount. The amount of stretch is related to the necessary
> ammount
> of pressure. That in turn is based on the expected forces that could
> distort or break the attachment between the two parts. The greater
> the
> expected forces, or the greater the stability required in the
> attachment,
> the greater the pressure needed. For more pressure, you would want a
> heavier bolt, perhaps with a finer-pitch thread. Multiple bolts are
> also
> used. Safety margins are also a big part of these design decisions.
>
> But mainly this shows the need for a torque spec. It should give a
> range,
> with the lower value representing the minimum for which the joint
> will have
> adequate stability considering a safety margin. Sometimes, like in
> some
> automotive main bearing and connecting arm bolts, the elongation is
> directly
> measured.
>
> In BBs the cup can be made stable by tightening it enough that the
> chance of
> loosening is extremely low in the expected use over time. A secondary
> result to tightening a bolt is that the pressure between the threads
> on the
> bolt (or BB cup) and the threads on the nut (or BB shell)
> increases. As it
> increases the static friction increases. The force required to move
> the
> tightened cup is greater with a tighter cup. The force required to
> disturb
> or distort that joint in turn is greater - the joint is more stable
> and more
> resistant to loosening.
>
> The torque that you should use is not infinite, because first, our
> muscles
> are limited, and mainly, the strength of metals are limited, as
> great as it
> is. It is possible to strip bolts with enough force, and similarly BB
> threads at least in principle. The torque spec again provides useful
> guidance, specifying the maximum torque that should be applied to
> prevent
> damage. A good torque wrench can be a big help, if you have a good
> set or
> torque specs for your bike.
>
> Goteborg, huh? I like that city!
>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Ken Freeman
> Ann Arbor, MI USA
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 04:08:09 -0700
> From: Mike Larsen <mnbikeresto@yahoo.com>
> Subject: [CR] Witches Brew-stuck stuff
> To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> Message-ID: <770790.31155.qm@web45707.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> List members;
> I have mixed the 50-50 mix of Acetone and Trans fluid. I had a
> especially stuck bar stem and it was a rare Schwinn unit in an old
> Continental frame. The frame was so bad I used the blue wrench to
> just cut the fork off the frame. Trying to save the bar stem and
> fork for it was chrome I used the 50-50 mix. The stem and fork broke
> free after a long period of soaking many many days, but the bar stem
> would not come out. The death of the bar stem was evident and after
> clamping it in the vise and much work I saved the fork and found out
> why, the bar stem went all the way down to the bottom of the fork
> and would have been nice for a higher rise on the bars. It would
> never have broke loose without the 50-50 mix.
>
> Mike Larsen
> St. Paul, MN
> USA
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 13:16:57 +0200
> From: M-gineering <info@m-gineering.nl>
> Subject: Re: [CR] Bottom Bracket Cups & Threads - Why do they stay
> tight or loosen?
> Cc: Classic Rendezvous <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> Message-ID: <4AB36C29.60004@m-gineering.nl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format=flowed
>
> Ken Freeman wrote:
>> On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 9:21 AM, Steve Maas
>> <bikestuff@nonlintec.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Jerome & Elizabeth Moos wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> .....I've long said that the technically correct ISO BB standard
>>> would
>>> have been Swiss, since it was metric, and had the correct LH
>>> thread o
>>> on the fixed cup. But of course that decision was made based on
>>> market
>>> share, not technical logic. At least the English thread anointed
>>> ISO
>>> did happen to have the "correct" LH fixed cup as well.
>>>
>>> It's important to remember that the purpose of standards is to
>>> normalize
>>> what most people are doing already, not to determine what's best
>>> and try to
>>> force everyone to do it. That almost never works. On rare
>>> occasions when
>>> it's been attempted, people just ignore the standard and adhere to
>>> some kind
>>> of de facto standard, which is established by everyone immitating
>>> some
>>> common practice.
>>>
>>> French dimensions are a good example of an attempt to create a
>>> standard
>>> apart from common practice. We all know how well that went!
>>>
>>> As for BBs--is the ISO standard based on British dimensions the
>>> only one?
>>> I'm away from home and my books, so I can't check. There's no
>>> reason why
>>> there can't be multiple standards for some type of item.
>>>
>>> Steve Maas
>>> G?teborg, Sweden
>>>
>>>
>>> I can attest first hand to this logic of standardization. I'm
>>> writing an
>> ISO standard in another field, and the primary purpose is to
>> promote global
>> trade by establishing a common language for design and description of
>> products in the relevant domain. There is a great tension between
>> the
>> standard writing team and some of the reviewers. Many reviewers
>> think that
>> the purpose of the standard is to show what is the limit of
>> concievable
>> technology, the best engineering solution, or what their sponsors
>> think is
>> best.
>>
>> Back to BB engineering:
> If a reversed thread was
>> absolutely necessary in all potential cases, we would have to see hub
>> locknuts using both a righty-tighty and a lefty-tighty design.
>> However,
>> they don't.
>
>
> which is why it's more often the rh cone which you find has loosened.
> --
> mvg
>
> Marten Gerritsen
> Kiel Windeweer
> Netherlands
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 13:33:35 +0200
> From: Ken Freeman <kenfreeman096@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [CR] Bottom Bracket Cups & Threads - Why do they stay
> tight or loosen?
> To: M-gineering <info@m-gineering.nl>
> Cc: Classic Rendezvous <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> Message-ID:
> <7543b4a40909180433o33c07d6te38a2a0aeef796b4@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
>
> And why I advocate finding and adhering to a proper torque spec and
> torquing
> spec.
>
> On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 1:16 PM, M-gineering <info@m-gineering.nl>
> wrote:
>
>> Ken Freeman wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 9:21 AM, Steve Maas
>>> <bikestuff@nonlintec.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Jerome & Elizabeth Moos wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> .....I've long said that the technically correct ISO BB standard
>>>> would
>>>> have been Swiss, since it was metric, and had the correct LH
>>>> thread o
>>>> on the fixed cup. But of course that decision was made based on
>>>> market
>>>> share, not technical logic. At least the English thread anointed
>>>> ISO
>>>> did happen to have the "correct" LH fixed cup as well.
>>>>
>>>> It's important to remember that the purpose of standards is to
>>>> normalize
>>>> what most people are doing already, not to determine what's best
>>>> and try
>>>> to
>>>> force everyone to do it. That almost never works. On rare
>>>> occasions when
>>>> it's been attempted, people just ignore the standard and adhere
>>>> to some
>>>> kind
>>>> of de facto standard, which is established by everyone immitating
>>>> some
>>>> common practice.
>>>>
>>>> French dimensions are a good example of an attempt to create a
>>>> standard
>>>> apart from common practice. We all know how well that went!
>>>>
>>>> As for BBs--is the ISO standard based on British dimensions the
>>>> only one?
>>>> I'm away from home and my books, so I can't check. There's no
>>>> reason why
>>>> there can't be multiple standards for some type of item.
>>>>
>>>> Steve Maas
>>>> G?teborg, Sweden
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I can attest first hand to this logic of standardization. I'm
>>>> writing an
>>>>
>>> ISO standard in another field, and the primary purpose is to promote
>>> global
>>> trade by establishing a common language for design and description
>>> of
>>> products in the relevant domain. There is a great tension between
>>> the
>>> standard writing team and some of the reviewers. Many reviewers
>>> think
>>> that
>>> the purpose of the standard is to show what is the limit of
>>> concievable
>>> technology, the best engineering solution, or what their sponsors
>>> think is
>>> best.
>>>
>>> Back to BB engineering:
>>>
>> If a reversed thread was
>>
>>> absolutely necessary in all potential cases, we would have to see
>>> hub
>>> locknuts using both a righty-tighty and a lefty-tighty design.
>>> However,
>>> they don't.
>>>
>>
>>
>> which is why it's more often the rh cone which you find has loosened.
>> --
>> mvg
>>
>> Marten Gerritsen
>> Kiel Windeweer
>> Netherlands
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Ken Freeman
> Ann Arbor, MI USA
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 07:49:25 -0400
> From: Angel Garcia <veronaman@gmail.com>
> Subject: [CR] RIH Framebuilding
> To: CLASSIC RENDEZVOUS <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> Message-ID:
> <70e14d4c0909180449n33d39aadw8f98835e4d9a2b3@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
>
> Well done videos of a KOF frame being built at RIH:
>
> Part I: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oc4mw_s162w
> Part II: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0fQ9XwaKVQ
>
> Would love to know what he occasionally says....
>
> Angel Garcia
> Long Valley, NJ
>
>
> --
> You may enjoy reading my blog:
> http://www.italiancyclingjournal.blogspot.com
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 13:54:59 +0200
> From: Freek Faro <khun.freek@gmail.com>
> Subject: [CR] Ebay outing, mine, Columbus chrome NOS front fork and
> more ..
> To: classic <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> Cc: faro@cistron.nl
> Message-ID:
> <df813d780909180454j1d0aa885r1fb5d0a9669884d1@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
>
> Good day all,
>
> Another Ebay venture by me, another attempt to lighten the load of
> superfluous classic stuff ..
>
> I have listed 8 items, 5 of them on topic, to end next Sunday.
> The on-topic items are:
>
> - 2 Cinelli 1A stems, new logo, 100 and 105 mm
> - Columbus chrome front fork, octanogal shaped and straight legs,
> NOS
> - Campagnolo Record crankset steel dustcaps, 2 sets, one is
> 'brev', the
> other 'patent'
> - Campagnolo Nuovo Record pat 76 rear derailleur, front clamp-on
> derailleur, clamp-on gearlevers
> - Cinelli Unicanitor #3 saddle, rider condition
>
> The item number for the chrome fork is: 220481407146, form there
> you'll find
> the other items. My sellers name is faustobeer.
>
> Ask anything you want to know, or add info if you can.
>
> Thanks for looking and enjoy bidding!
>
> Freek Faro
> Rotterdam Netherlands
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 08:10:57 -0400
> From: Tom Beattie <tomgb19@verizon.net>
> Subject: [CR] Ebay outing - very different
> To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> Message-ID: <005201ca3859$145b8f30$3d12ad90$@net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> I came across this listing yesterday - sounds like an interesting
> way to
> move parts.
>
> Item #130330009156 gets you there. Ignore the BIN price and read the
> listing.
>
> No relation to seller!
>
>
>
> Tom Beattie
>
> Warwick RI USA
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 14:23:32 +0200
> From: Freek Faro <khun.freek@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [CR] RIH Framebuilding
> To: Angel Garcia <veronaman@gmail.com>
> Cc: CLASSIC RENDEZVOUS <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> Message-ID:
> <df813d780909180523y57a7af27vf5b951bf3e96c51@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
>
> Angel,
>
> Very nice videos!
> OK, I've attempted to translate some of the remarks of mr. van der
> Kaay.
>
> First video:
>
> - I clean the inside of the fork crown so the silver will flow
> better
> - I make a small hole in the lug (or crown maybe?) air pressure to
> escape
> when I braze the lug; otherwise the silver may get pushed out. I
> can close
> the hole again when i'm done
> - cleaning (excess material on lugs) makes working easier
> - I call this grit blasting (the word sand blasting is forbidden)
> - its beginning to look like a bicycle now
> - it seems to be very exclusive what we are doing here!
> - with the right angles of the tubes in the lugs we can prevent
> stresses
> and cracking of tubes
>
> Remember mr. van der Kaay is in his 70s now. His workshop seems pretty
> cluttered, and sometimes he doesnt remember where he has put a tool
> or part
> ...
>
> Freek Faro
> Rotterdam Netherlands
>
> 2009/9/18 Angel Garcia <veronaman@gmail.com>
>
>> Well done videos of a KOF frame being built at RIH:
>>
>> Part I: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oc4mw_s162w
>> Part II: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0fQ9XwaKVQ
>>
>> Would love to know what he occasionally says....
>>
>> Angel Garcia
>> Long Valley, NJ
>>
>>
>> --
>> You may enjoy reading my blog:
>> http://www.italiancyclingjournal.blogspot.com
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 09:34:50 -0400
> From: <oroboyz@aol.com>
> Subject: [CR] Videos of RIH Framebuilding
> To: <veronaman@gmail.com>, <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> Message-ID: <8CC067BEE3A41FF-56E0-1CCE0@webmail-m086.sysops.aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Very interesting! ?How nice that they made these two videos!
>
>
>
> A few observations & questions...
>
>
>
>
>
> At the start:?
>
> - Heating fork blades rather high up... for what purpose? It almost
> looks like he is heating to re-set the curvature/offset, which
> should be a no no. But maybe that is not the case and instead he is
> brazing the dropouts and for some reason heating the blades higher
> up than seem necessary or desirable...?
>
>
>
>
> Note the use of old Haden or Bocama lugs and Cinelli Spoiler bb!?
>
>
>
>
> Note the nice inserts to protect BB shell while clamping in vise...
>
>
>
>
> Note the somewhat odd Ouji board for frame design set up. What could
> that large shaped partial disc affair be? To set seat tube angle? ?
> Why the dual top tube process? To match seat and and head angle by
> making these top tube elements?parallel??
>
>
>
>
> Note nice big fat flame used...
>
>
>
>
> Note that unusual fixture or gadget along the top of top tube when
> he is fitting it to bb shell...
>
>
>
>
> All and all a fascinating look at a builder who had obviously
> devised his own solutions to the craft of traditional frame building!
>
>
>
>
> Dale
>
>
>
>
> Dale Brown
>
> Greensboro, North Carolina USA
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Angel Garcia <veronaman@gmail.com>
> To: CLASSIC RENDEZVOUS <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> Sent: Fri, Sep 18, 2009 7:49 am
> Subject: [CR] RIH Framebuilding
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Well done videos of a KOF frame being built at RIH:
>
> Part I: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oc4mw_s162w
> Part II: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0fQ9XwaKVQ
>
> Would love to know what he occasionally says....
>
> Angel Garcia
> Long Valley, NJ
>
>
> --
> You may enjoy reading my blog:
> http://www.italiancyclingjournal.blogspot.com
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 09:42:36 -0400
> From: <oroboyz@aol.com>
> Subject: Re: [CR] RIH Framebuilding
> To: <khun.freek@gmail.com>, <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> Message-ID: <8CC067D04282C9C-56E0-1CE45@webmail-m086.sysops.aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>
>
> <<?Remember mr. van der Kaay is in his 70s now. His workshop seems
> pretty
> cluttered, and sometimes he doesnt remember where he has put a tool
> or part >>
>
>
> He looks to be doing a pretty good job! Cluttered workshop means a
> busy man! :)
>
>
>
> Dale
>
>
>
>
> Dale Brown
> Greensboro, North Carolina USA
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Freek Faro <khun.freek@gmail.com>
> To: Angel Garcia <veronaman@gmail.com>
> Cc: CLASSIC RENDEZVOUS <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> Sent: Fri, Sep 18, 2009 8:23 am
> Subject: Re: [CR] RIH Framebuilding
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Angel,
>
> Very nice videos!
> OK, I've attempted to translate some of the remarks of mr. van der
> Kaay.
>
> First video:
>
> - I clean the inside of the fork crown so the silver will flow
> better
> - I make a small hole in the lug (or crown maybe?) air pressure to
> escape
> when I braze the lug; otherwise the silver may get pushed out. I
> can close
> the hole again when i'm done
> - cleaning (excess material on lugs) makes working easier
> - I call this grit blasting (the word sand blasting is forbidden)
> - its beginning to look like a bicycle now
> - it seems to be very exclusive what we are doing here!
> - with the right angles of the tubes in the lugs we can prevent
> stresses
> and cracking of tubes
>
> Remember mr. van der Kaay is in his 70s now. His workshop seems pretty
> cluttered, and sometimes he doesnt remember where he has put a tool
> or part
> ...
>
> Freek Faro
> Rotterdam Netherlands
>
> 2009/9/18 Angel Garcia <veronaman@gmail.com>
>
>> Well done videos of a KOF frame being built at RIH:
>>
>> Part I: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oc4mw_s162w
>> Part II: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0fQ9XwaKVQ
>>
>> Would love to know what he occasionally says....
>>
>> Angel Garcia
>> Long Valley, NJ
>>
>>
>> --
>> You may enjoy reading my blog:
>> http://www.italiancyclingjournal.blogspot.com
>> _______________________________________________
>>
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> End of Classicrendezvous Digest, Vol 81, Issue 66
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