Re: [CR] "fake" 1950s Carltom Massed Start

(Example: Racing:Beryl Burton)

Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 16:46:15 +0100
From: "Hilary Stone" <>
To: Jon Spangler <>
References: <> <>
In-Reply-To: <>
Subject: Re: [CR] "fake" 1950s Carltom Massed Start

There is no doubt that this is a genuine Mass Start Special; the model is in the Carlton 1951 and 1952 catalogues:

The LH frame is the straightforward Massed Start and the right-hand frame the Massed Start Special.

And the quoted frame number Cxxxx is approx correct for 1951-2.

It has I am sure been repainted but the seller himself says that if he believed the paint to be original he would not be selling it - that is a pretty clear message. And it has had some braze-ons added...

Hilary Stone, Bristol, British Isles

Jon Spangler wrote:
> Dear Don,
> I appreciate your expert critique of the decals and finish on this
> "fake" Carlton bike, but am still left wondering whether the frame is a
> genuine
> 1950s Massed Start that has been modernized and repainted (albeit with
> improper decals) or whether it is, as you say, a later model of Carlton
> that has been misidentified or mislabeled by the seller.
> We have frequent discussions here about the lug and fork crown
> variations (seemingly discernible by month) on Masis, Cinellis, and
> other Italian classics, for instance, and I know enough about what to
> look for just from skimming them. How does one distinguish a genuine
> 1950s Carlton Massed Start
> (or any other similar frame) from its later brethren based on the unique
> frame design details? How does one ascertain that the frame underneath
> this gorgeous paint job is or is not a Carlton "of a certain age"?
> Looking forward to further enlightenment,
> Jon Spangler
> Trying to learn something about Carltons and authenticity in Alameda, CA
> On Oct 4, 2009, at 7:32 AM, <>
> <> wrote:
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2009 20:19:37 -0700
>> From: donald gillies <>
>> Subject: Re: [CR] ebay outing: amazing carlton - fake, fake, fake
>> To: <>
>> Cc:,
>> Message-ID: <>
>> Content-Type: text/plain
>> I have a 1950 flyer and I've seen massed starts and super pythons on
>> ebay, and of course I saved the photos in my archive of Carlton Art.
>> This is a beautiful bike, just beautiful. But it's certainly not a
>> 1950's Massed Start bike. It could possibly be an early 1960's bike
>> of some sort.
>> I'll tell you just why this bike is a fake.
>> 1. First, bikes in the 50's era had a different seat tube decal.
>> Even though reproductions of that vintage seat tube decal are
>> available from Nick at Lloyds, I'll can tell you exactly why the
>> painter didn't use the reproductions, assuming he knew what he was
>> doing. The painter used a 2nd head tube decal because the seat
>> tube decal SHOULD contain THE MODEL NAME within the seat tube
>> decal to be authentic.
>> My 1950 Carlton Flyer says "FLYER" within the decal.
>> Another 50's bike says "SUPER PYTHON" within the decal.
>> Pix available on request.
>> 2. My 1950 Carlton flyer is reynolds 531 throughout, but more
>> importantly, its freak'in light, a 1900 grams frame for a 23"
>> sized frame. The 531 decal used on my bike is the "thumbnail"
>> sized decal that just says '531'. It doesn't have all the
>> B.S. contained on the decal in the auction.
>> 3. More importantly, where's the frick'in 'Carlton' script decal that
>> belongs on the top tube or downtube, much like what Raleigh
>> adopted in the 70's? What Raleigh adopted in the 70's, Carlton
>> was doing in the 50's.
>> Excuse my french. I have MADE copies of this decal PRECISELY
>> BECAUSE its so difficult to find. doesn't make it.
>> The bike should not have block letters on the downtube, it should
>> be script letters, just like on my 1950 Carlton Flyer, and like
>> the early 1960's Carlton Franco-Suisse that I am turning a Raleigh
>> International into ...
>> - Don Gillies
>> San Diego, CA, USA
> Jon Spangler
> Writer/editor
> Linda Hudson Writing
> TEL 510-864-2144
> CEL 510-846-5356