Dean,
I think you have the best perspective. The point of a repaint/restoration shouldn't be to make the painters life a living hell. Most painters will accommodate a good amount of personal taste and requests on any project; but when the parameters are taken to the extreme, as happens upon occasion; it becomes a situation that is difficult and impractical for a restorer to do within the limits of the cost of refinishing a bicycle. Collector cars and such are a completely different game altogether.
Brian Baylis La Mesa, CA I've never been comfortable making a bike look so original one can't tell it has been restored. I consider that "counterfeiting" and a bit dishonest. Not on the part of the painter, but the owner of the bike. I've seen people try to pass these off as original. NOT good!
I think Bill has got it right. If for whatever reason you have decided to 're-paint' you need to accept that it will never, ever, ever look like the original from 30 years ago, nor will it have that 'patina of age'. My feeling is that it shouldn't have to and that it is still beautiful. My local restorer / painter is also an artist and his work is as much a 'part' of my bicycle as those file marks on the BB shell. I actually prefer the paint to look a little different from the original - I'm not trying to hide the fact that the frame has been refinished. My personal preference is to stay within the colour palette of the original finishes without going crazy to match it exactly. Besides - unless you are flipping restored bikes as a business you can always try again to get the colour / clearcoat / decals to your liking.
So repaint or wax however you like!! There is no 'right' or 'standard' way nor should there be. Variety is a wonderful thing. It's nice go have those original examples around to admire, but if such an example belonged to me I would worry too much about taking it out for a ride - even on Sundays! I guess the only thing I dislike seeing on a classic bicycle is neglect. Keep riding that re-painted bike another 20 years and you will have developed a fine patina of your own!
Dean "I like them all" Nixon Toronto, Canada
On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 10:52 AM, Bill Kloos <billkloos@landuseoregon.com>wrote:
> Listmembers:
>
> As a sometime consumer of restoration services, I thoroughly enjoyed
> Brian's
> riff below. He summarizes, from the restorer's perspective, many of the
> themes that get tossed up whenever the topic gets posted. (There are a
> handful of topics that seem to strike a nerve on CR and then eat bandwidth
> -- like the quality of Raleigh Professionals, among others.) Very
> entertaining.
>
> I am kind of a new to this hobby, but I expect my experience is shared by
> other folks on the list. I rescue 1970s high end road bikes from eBay, and
> I use the CR list to learn what to do with them. It is a wonderful synergy
> -- endless supply of bikes and parts from eBay, bottomless expertise from
> CR. Without either of the two, I might be bowling instead.
>
> My preference is to live with the paint that comes on the bikes in the
> "good" and "bad" categories, and consider restoring those that are "ugly."
> For those ugly frames to get a makeover, I think of the restorer as an
> artist. I pick a color and let him do his thing. The frame is his canvas.
>
> What I get back is a high quality frame hiding under the artist's
> expression
> of what he does best. And I get his little signature somewhere on the
> canvas. My too beat 1972 Italian Masi GC (beware of fuzzy pictures on eBay)
> becomes a Baylis painting. My way tired 1975 Eisentraut A becomes an Ed
> Litton painting. My rough 1975 Witcomb USA becomes a JP Weigle painting,
> for the second time since he built it originally. (Actually, I am still
> working up the courage to ask JPW to repaint this one for me.)
>
> I consider these folks to be artists. I feel lucky to engage one on a piece
> of my hardware. I relish the art. I appreciate the artist.
>
> Bill Kloos
> Eugene, OR 97401
> billkloos@landuseoregon.com
>
> -------- Original Message from Brian Baylis -------------
> Message: 9
> Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 08:29:18 +0000
> From: "brianbaylis@juno.com" <brianbaylis@juno.com>
> Subject: [CR] restoration is a tough business
>
> Listmembers,
>
> Imagine, after having read all of the discussions (over and over) about
> restoring, or not, classic bicycles what it must be like to have to make a
> living doing it. It should be pretty clear by now that each person has
> their
> own idea of how they would like it done, which things are most important,
> and how much money and or time it should take.
>
> I can speak from experience, since I did my first bike restoration in 1972
> (a Peugeot PX-10), have worked as a factory painter for several bike
> manufactures, and have painted my own custom frames as well as those of
> many
> other framebuilders. I also build custom frames, so I know what it takes to
> build a frame and how that is related to painting. Just for the record; I
> consider myself a framebuilder. I paint my own bikes out of necessity, and
> I
> only paint other stuff to sort of help out now and again. And yet, more
> times that I can count, I hear people call me a painter. I do have a large
> pile of trophies and awards for my paintwork; but the fact of the matter is
> that if those paint jobs weren't on my own frames, I suspect I would get a
> lot less attention for painting. One thing that some don't realize is how
> important the "canvas" is for the painter. It's also one thing to do custom
> paint on ones own creations as opposed to trying to replicate the original
> finish on factory bikes. It's not quite as difficult to copy custom frames,
> generally speaking, largely on account of the fact that we here in the
> states all have access to the same original paint systems.
>
> As a restorer here in the US, we do not and never have had access to the
> factory paints used in Europe, which are very different from our paint
> here.
> In addition to that, original factory paint, especially the clear, breaks
> down and will oxidize until it's completely gone; so the older the bike is,
> the thinner the clear gets. Imron from the early 70's will hold up
> indefinitely and is definitely a little heavier viscosity than Euro paints,
> no matter how thin the paint is applied. Someone mentioned applying
> multiple
> coats of primer on frames. Not common as far as I know. I never use more
> than one coat of primer, and that I reduce to thin out, which is not how
> it's normally used on automobiles. Spot putty is most often used to fill
> pits and small surface defects, so that does not add to the primer on the
> overall frame. That gets sanded to the level of the base metal or the
> single
> layer of primer. That will be spot primed so that when sanded there is
> still
> only one layer of primer on the frame when it's ready for color. In the
> case
> of Cinelli silver; the file marks are so clearly visible partially on
> account of the nature of silver paint. It shows sanding scratches and file
> marks like no other color. Yes, silver is thin my nature, but it also shows
> all surface imperfections. The main reason the file marks are so obvious on
> Cinelli BB shells is first, they are sand cast shells which are rough to
> begin with, so what doesn't get filed is still rough; and what does get
> filed is only done with bastard files, BIG ones! They apparently never
> heard
> of 2nd cut or smooth cut files in Italian bike factories. The bastard file
> marks on Cinelli fork blades are visible for the same reason; they're huge
> gouges made with 12" bastard files. The only reason the file marks aren't
> visible on lugs is because the lugs on most of them are pressed steel and
> get polished smooth before plating by the buffers.
>
> What I'm trying to get at here is that there are too many "standards" out
> there that make it really difficult to meet the expectations of everyone.
> In
> addition to that, there are a number of different ways of doing almost
> every
> one of the many operations involved in repainting a bike. Masking chrome is
> one of those situations. The lugwork itself will play a major role in what
> the outcome may be in the end. Sometimes the method used isn't the same as
> the original, which can generate complaints, depending on how picky the
> client is. What I have been having difficulty with in recent years is that
> there has surfaced a new breed of picky clients that don't understand all
> that is involved in the restoration business. I think a certain amount of
> that has come from this list and these discussions that often confuse some
> of the issues and involve people of many different opinions about how it
> should be done. None of these people actually do this sort of work for a
> living; and I think it's not unusual for someone to not understand what is
> practical to accomplish in a reasonable amount of time or for a certain
> price. This game is so complicated at times that communication can be
> difficult, especially long distance. This makes the job much more
> difficult.
>
>
> I have had some difficulty in the paint business in recent years; since I
> got involved in trying to help newer framebuilders and aspiring painters.
> My
> routine has been disrupted, my ability to focus and concentrate on the
> crazy
> number of details involved, and having to move a few times for various
> reasons has made the paint part of what I do nearly unbearable. Finding
> help
> that is capable is nearly impossible and creates a lot of problems for a
> person like me. I finally decided to downplay restoration work until I can
> regain control of all the circumstances related to painting bikes. Some
> stuff still slips in upon occasion; but I am still after all a
> framebuilder,
> not a painter. I hope soon I can do some restoration work under the
> controlled and solitary environment that I work best in. I think I'm nearly
> there. I have been sensitive and irritable as a painter in recent years on
> account of these struggles with circumstances and tying to find people to
> fill the void of too few painters in the business. Things will change for
> the better before long, and I'm looking forward to it. I will remain
> focused
> on framebuilding, which is my real passion, and only take restorations that
> suit me and my style. I use to try to be all things to all people. I have
> found I can not do that as a single person operation. I also don't like
> working with other people. So I'm making the adjustments to right the boat.
> Sorry if I've been snippy from time to time on paint issues. But really,
> there are just too many different opinions and standards for one person to
> accommodate. It has been frustrating for me, and I'm sure for a few persons
> on the list as well.
>
> BTW, not sure what the future holds for quality and durability of paint
> available to us. Water based color coats are right around the corner here
> in
> CA. I can honestly say I'm NOT excited about that. As a matter of fact, I
> hate it. We'll see what happens. I may give up painting altogether, you
> never know.
>
> Brian Baylis
> La Mesa, CA
> Sorry to rant; but I had to get this off my chest.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
_______________________________________________
____________________________________________________________
Wholesale Hardwood Floors
Never pay retail again. Wholesale prices on all hardwood flooring!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/