[CR] a little more Raleigh, Pro, Retro Raleigh history, relatively rant free

(Example: Framebuilders:Norman Taylor)

Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 18:00:55 -0500
To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
From: "Larry Osborn" <losborn2@wvu.edu>
Subject: [CR] a little more Raleigh, Pro, Retro Raleigh history, relatively rant free


Greetings campers and rant survivors

Yeah, someday I'll learn to save those rants and re-send them on a regular basis. Glad it helped clarify things for a few people. But putting myself through the motions each time reminds me that I haven't learned anything more in the previous year that could improve the reliability of what we think we know.

Meanwhile:

Apologies for not using the proper name "Brampton Victor seat cluster" (or some variation thereof) when discussing Pro frame characteristics in an earlier post. I don't like the term "fastback" either, but more people understand the generic term, at least in the US, so I guess we're stuck with it.

Apologies for not using the proper color name Blue Mink. Despite "recently" arguing in support of that name's right to exist (see rant ~ 4/23/2008 Raleigh Pro Colors. Whoa, it has been almost a year since my last major rant. Apparently I was overdue.). I agree it's a stupid name, but many color names are. (see equivalent Metallic Blue Pearl and Quartz Silver Metallic from Subaru 2008). The street name for that color has always been, and forever will be, "Raleigh Pro Blue". Many more people, far outside this little group, can accurately visualize the color from that name than from "Blue Mink". I never even heard "Blue Mink" used openly in public until I started hanging around with you maniacs, and even I was momentarily confused the first few times.

Checked the US price lists I have, and the MK V Pro (no chrome, capped stays, no more B-V fastback) is present in an April 1977 price list. The March 76 price list still lists the MK IV. I don't have any price lists / data points in between. I have no idea how often Raleigh issued new price lists to their US dealers.

Accidentally rediscovered some pics of a blue F serial Pro frame while "researching" the earlier rants. When seen for sale my first impression was that the paint and decals were much too nice to be original Raleigh. The F serial (up over 8000) and plain lugs provided confirmation enough for me that it was most likely a formerly brown MK III that had been professionally repainted in R P Blue. Not some missing link or mutation that could disrupt my whole perception of reality.

A few more comments in response to off-list discussions:

Taking the MK I white Pro rant to the obvious extreme, a little research revealed other national flags with red, black, and yellow are Belgium with black, yellow, red vertical stripes, in that order left to right, or even less likely, Uganda with horizontal stripes in that order, done twice. That's all. So, three possibilities for those seat tube bands being somebody's national colors, and Raleigh missed them all with their choice of red, black, yellow or orange in that order. If Raleigh was going to market something with national colors, wouldn't the logical selection be the colors of Great Britain? What possible reason would there be to market bikes with national colors of Germany or Belgium (scrambled or correct) anywhere other than those countries? Just asking. As goofy as Raleigh could be at times, they certainly had a history of successfully publicizing and marketing any racing connections. Not likely they would have missed an opportunity here either. No mention of anything like that in the US catalogs. I would love to see it if it exists somewhere, anywhere, anybody.

Still pondering the actual starting point of the letter serial system. Has anybody ever seen an A, B, or C serial Raleigh? Earliest I've seen here in the US is a D on some chromed Nervex lugged Competition frames, and numerous As on 1973 frames. I hate extrapolating beyond confirmed data points. Always leads to trouble. I would love to hear from anybody anywhere who has seen the earlier letters allegedly assigned to 1966, 67, and 68. Or are they just blanks in the system as is the case with Carlton serial systems? Hopefully the UK is littered with them, and there really is some order to the universe. Surprise me, please. 8 X 10 glossies always appreciated. JPEGs will do.

Model years on Raleigh US catalogs are conspicuously absent for most of the 60s & 70s. But just so you know there are a few relatively reliable reference points, there are date codes on some of the US catalogs, in VERY small print. No idea what the surrounding clutter stands for, but the two digit year is a system so obvious it had to be discontinued:

16785M 1967 16885M 1968 accidentally coincided with a price list I had, Form 1685 16980M 1969 17025M 1970 coincides with year on the cover 17150M 1971

Just a little historical perspective on Retro Raleighs: Back in the dark times, before Dale and Sheldon and some other generous people brought the wisdom of the ages to our fingertips....... The material on the original Retro Raleighs site was collected by me and a couple other guys (Ray "Dawn" Chong and Glenn Gernert, were the other primary co-conspirators) covering only the time period we were personally interested in (Reynolds 531 butted frames, late 60s thru early 70s). The "W" system was described to us by a pretty good US authority who's name I cannot remember now. (Thank you.). We combined what we had heard and suspected about the earlier alphabetic serial system with date codes on Campy components when possible, our combined catalogs, our own bikes and any other bikes we came across in reasonably unmolested condition, our often dubious memories of what happened when, information from any other informed person we could interrogate, to create a loose framework we could work with for our own evil purposes. And one that other people could use, so we wouldn't have to answer the same questions over and over. Never achieved greater confirmation from any reliable source, but haven't seen anything since then that suggests we were very far off target. It works in a general way. That's all we wanted from it. Close enough.

That information treasure hunt continues, (now mostly through CR contacts and ebay auction descriptions) but we ran out of time to keep playing with it consistently. Sheldon was kind enough to adopt that stuff so it wouldn't be lost. He added significantly to the reference catalogs and date code info for other periods, but I don't know if he did anything more to verify the date code stuff for the period 67-73. Perhaps he had a better authority already. I don't know. And still no explanation for the A serial 73 model frames. We did the best we could, but that didn't make it perfect, or precise. We added written cautions / disclaimers to all of it. Some of our gaps in knowledge and little lapses in memory are now permanently enshrined. Minor embarrassments at worst. It's no more perfect or precise sitting on Sheldon's site than it was on ours. And even Sheldon retained the written caution / disclaimer for that period, and had the good sense to add new ones for the time periods he added to our previous efforts, but which many people don't bother to read, or choose to ignore. They're not even buried in small print. It's all shades of gray with this early Raleigh junque, presented and described as shades of gray. I suspect this is as good as it's going to get.

Time to rant 'n roll. Larry "Retro Raleighs Anonymous" Osborn Bruceton Mills - West Virginia - USA