Re: [CR] WTB Claud Butler New Allrounder or Similar

(Example: Framebuilders:Chris Pauley)

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 15:33:28 -0500
From: "John Betmanis" <johnb@oxford.net>
To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
References: <464405.21945.qm@web82201.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
In-Reply-To: <464405.21945.qm@web82201.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [CR] WTB Claud Butler New Allrounder or Similar


Jerry, It's not clear to me either whether there was an Allrounder before the New Allrounder, but Norm Kilgariff's catalogue site does list an Allrounder in 1936 and a catalogue page in 1949 describing it as "welded" construction.. According to that site, the Avant Coureur was the first bilaminated Claud in 1948, although I've seen a "1947" on eBay. From what I've seen on Kilgariff's and on Britishlightweights, the original Avant Coureur had "lugs" similar to the familiar ones on the later New Allrounder. My 1951 New Allrounder frame has those same "lugs". I don't know whether the New Allrounder and Avant Coureur had similar "lugs" concurrently, but when Hilary Stone had my '51 up on eBay, he had named the pictures "Avant Coureur", so there may have been some confusion. What I do know is that when I bought my first New Allrounder in 1953 or '54, the bilaminated "lugs" on the Avant Coureur resembled Nervex Pro lugs.

Over the years the construction of the New Allrounder remained the same except for a few details. My '51 has round fork blades with a twin plate crown, indented round chainstays, bevelled "top eyes" and a bronze external seat clamp. My '53 had oval forks with a traditional crown, oval-round chainstays, wrap-over "top eyes" and an integrated seat lug clamp. The spears on the chainstay "lugs" were also different from '51 and I've seen New Allrounders with fluted "top eyes".

-- John Betmanis Woodstock, Ontario Canada

Jerome & Elizabeth Moos wrote:
> I've been having some discussion offlist about this bike. I have a bilaminated Claud Butler that I bought from Peter Naiman a few years ago. Never could find a serial # on the frame, but the one on the fork indicates 1950. At the time I bought it, some CR members sent me links to some 50's CB catalogs. The lug (actually sleeve) pattern looks like the one shown for the Allrounder in the mid-50's. BUT the 1954 (I think) catalog had language indicating that bilaminate construction was newly available on the Allrounder that year. So I concluded that, assuming the frame matched the fork, mine was too early to be a bilaminate Allrounder and must be a 1950 Avant Coureur instead. I speculated that the early 50's Avant Coureur might have used the "lug" pattern later used by the Allrounder when it got bilaminate construction circa 1954.
>
> I'm interested by the name "New Allrounder", which implies there was an "old Allrounder". Could it be the New Allrounder was the bilaminate version which the catalog language suggested was introduced circa 1954, while the original Allrounder was either lugged or fillet brazed? Can anyone confirm or refute my theory that the early 50's Avant Coureur used a lug pattern similar to the later New Allrounder?
>
> Regards,
>
> Jerry Moos
> Big Spring, Texas, USA
>
>
> --- On Thu, 1/7/10, John Betmanis <johnb@oxford.net> wrote:
>
>
>> From: John Betmanis <johnb@oxford.net>
>> Subject: Re: [CR] WTB Claud Butler New Allrounder or Similar
>> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
>> Date: Thursday, January 7, 2010, 9:53 PM
>> Is that Item # 130355552081 on
>> British eBay you're looking at?
>>
>> My first "real" bike was a 1953 (or '54; it was a long time
>> ago) CB New
>> Allrounder. Always wish I'd kept it. I finally snagged a
>> 1951 frame on
>> British eBay a couple of years ago (Hilary Stone) and I'm
>> slowly
>> accumulating bits to build it up after I've refinished it.
>>
>> --
>> John Betmanis Woodstock, Ontario Canada
>>
>>
>>
>> Todd Simeone wrote:
>>
>>> Greetings CR Members..
>>>
>>> My first post here, but been watching conversations
>>>
>> carefully. I recently
>>
>>> acquired a nice Claud Butler New Allrounder frameset
>>>
>> with classic
>>
>>> bi-laminate construction (mentioned recently on
>>>
>> CR). Maybe a little greedy
>>
>>> with my share of the market here, but I'm looking to
>>>
>> purchase a nearly
>>
>>> identical frameset, or full
>>>
>> bike. Currently one on ebay UK, but trying
>> to
>>
>>> avoid 300 gbp for a beat-up frame. It
>>>
>> will be re-painted, so poor
>>
>>> condition may be preferable to keep the price down.
>>>
>>> Looking for 55 to 58 cm.
>>>
>>> Here's the one I currently own:
>>> http://picasaweb.google.com/tsimeone/ClaudButlerFrame?authkey=Gv1sRgCL3Pi83M7euMVw&feat=directlink
>>>
>>>
>>> Also willing to consider other fancy lug, 531
>>>
>> framesets with similar
>>
>>> relaxed geometry. I realize this may be
>>>
>> blasphemy to some, but it will NOT
>>
>>> be restored period correct, if this a concern. Still a
>>>
>> classy project
>>
>>> though. Sorry.
>>>
>>>
>>> Looking forward to any leads or suggestions. Thanks in
>>>
>> advance.
>>
>>> Todd Simeone
>>> Chicago, IL USA