Re: [CR] TTs and Dawes.

Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2010 19:51:13 +0000
From: Hilary Stone <>
To: barrie carter <>
References: <> <COL121-W55EE1CD8B4A67D311FE985BF520@phx.gbl> <>
In-Reply-To: <>
Subject: Re: [CR] TTs and Dawes.

Claud Butler still built great frames up until their bankruptcy in 1957/8... Bill Gray was their chief foreman framebuilder for most of the post-war years and is one of the largely unsung greats of post-war British framebulding. Afterwards Holdsworth used the name for their more budget priced frames. However Raleigh did build the frames that Ray Booty and Reg Harris used - they were of course not off-the-shelf RRA frames but how many Team/sponsored rider frames are? RRA frames were very highly thought of by serious cyclists - not so much TTers or massed start riders but by CTC members who were equally serious riders but in a different way... Of course Lenton's were a budget frame but were certainly a cut above basic sports frames from Raleigh or any other of the large builders - of course the market for Lentons was not racers but for riders who were on a tight budget and would have often been the less affluent CTC members.

Hilary Stone, Bristol, British Isles

barrie carter wrote:
> Hi Niell, sorry you are wrong. Firstly, lug patterns meant little, the builder and his pro of independants successes did. Firms that made pretty lugs only appealed to the better off riders, and they were seldom the race winners. Your average club rider would buy what he could afford, but would NEVER buy a Raliegh et al. It was well known who the builders of these frames were ,and it was only the Name that was real. Im sure you must know that. Can you immagine Ray Booty riding a Record Ace straight from the shop for his RRA and other records. I dont think so.
> Another make that annoys me when mentioned is that of Claud Butler. Before the war he was respected. His frames were built by Holdsworths at the anerly factory after and who knows wsho built the rubbish, though Bill Hurlow, an old work mate at Condors and still a friend, built the odd ones.
> Whenever you say you are a bike rider, bet your life some hopefully impressive liar says"I had a Claud Butler " as if its the Open Sesame to the bike world. Its the open sesame to the junk yard and a great big zero in the impression stakes. You are right though, our TTs were far from flat and at 14 I was riding 25 miles to a 25 aand 25 home again, all on a bowl of corn flakes and on a fixed wheel. I cant even remember the name of the frame, but it wasnt a Raleigh, a Dawes, a C. Butler, a.............Barrie Carter, in a vanishing world and frightened of current accepted history, in a 299 year old house, in Roundham, Somerset Uk, Home of Stan Pike