Re: [CR] Data Elements of an Ideal Provenance ?

(Example: Framebuilders:Cecil Behringer)

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Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 16:44:55 -0500
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From: <>
Subject: Re: [CR] Data Elements of an Ideal Provenance ?

Greetings Folks,

Or, it could happen this way: Several years ago I saw an ad for a Serotta frameset in one of the local 'Want Ads' - I went to see it and the owner said that it was a 7-11 team frame which had been repainted. He based his statement on the Serial No which was 711326 (or something similar). After some haggling, we decided on a price and away I went. A couple days later, I visited Serotta's factory (7 miles from me) to ask their opinion. Turns out it was a 7-11 team frame, but not because of the 711 in the serial number! The 711 signified it was built in November of 1987 and was Brian Walton's frame. Each rider was given two frames - they could keep one, but had to turn the other one back in at the end of the season. This frame was subsequently sold to a Serotta employee who had it repainted.......

I sold it to someone from Chicago who wanted a 7-11 frame and ended up delivering it to the factory for a complete restoration.

All the best,

Chuck Brooks Malta, NY NEUSA

-----Original Message----- From: To: r cielec <> Cc: Classic Rendezvous <> Sent: Sun, Feb 7, 2010 11:29 pm Subject: Re: [CR] Data Elements of an Ideal Provenance ?

Well the first would be that you own it and you have the original order sheet, build communication and receipt. The next best is that you bought from the original owner, you have all that stuff and the receipt to you and a statement from the owner as to the period of their ownership. And so on.

I have found reconstructing this to be difficult. Neither Peter Weigle or Richard Sachs will own up to my Witcomb. Or venture a guess as to the the possible third party. And why in the world should they remember, some fine points of construction from thirty years ago.

Joe Bender-Zanoni
Whitneyville, CT

----- Original Message -----
From: r cielec
To: Classic Rendezvous
Sent: Sunday, February 7, 2010 10:24:20 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: [CR] Data Elements of an Ideal Provenance ?

Ahoy !

The purpose of my inquiry is to compile a definitive "best of all possible worlds" list of items should be in a bicycles provenance.

I honestly don't know - I can speculate, of course; but, I don't know what serious collectors consider an ideal provenance.

Make, model, builder, materials, angles, year, re-sprays, owners, etc ? I truly don't know.

As long as some previous owners and builders are still among the quick, I may as well going about things in the proper manner.

Thank you.


Richard Cielec
Chicago, Illinois; U.S.A.