Damien - Sorry if I caused confusion. It is the Campagnolo dropouts on the "mystery" frame that are drilled and I would agree that it is a waste of time. If you look closely at the gear side dropout on my fame you will notice that it is slightly wider at the mouth, and I am sure the reason is the weakened dropout combined with someone cranking too hard on the derailleur attaching bolt. Dropots were drilled by the frame builder; they were not supplied that way
Peter - Thanks for those additional photos. Your Mercier is probably the last generation real Mercier and so is useful for slotting in the others according to which features they do and do not have.
Leon - The only way to check the steerer thread is to take the the locknut off and see whether it fits a steerer of known thread or whether a nut of known thread fits the steerer. French is slightly smaller, so a British nut is sloppy on a French thread and a French nut will not start on a good British thread. With respect to colour, they all seem to vary on the screen. The early 1980s frame photos I uploaded look slightly bluer on my screen than in real life so it comes out slightly more purple on screen. It is original paint and unless your is a better guide, it is the one I would use. Withy respect to dropout drilling, this was done by hand although one would expect a jig to be used if lots were being drilled at the same time. I agree mine is a bit erratic. Your front dropout actually sounds like it might be Vitus rather than Campagnolo indicating a later fork replacement. Would need pictures to be sure. Might explain why I haven't yet found traces of chrome on mine. If your frame has been re-forked, it make a thread comparison irrelevant.
Norris - Thanks again for your input - always interesting and informative. I am not sure I totally agree on dating after comparing these unknown date frames to known date frames. A 1977 SDC frame does not have any braze-ons except rear chainstay cable stop and gear lever clamp stop. By 1980 they have cable guides above the BB and bottle bosses on the downtube and gear lever bosses. I wish I could find pictures in beween. The frame I have labelled early 1980s has script decals, whereas the team frames at least used block letters and SDC shield shaped foil decals on the head tube. This frame is closest to Peter's. And I cannot get away from the fact that both the "mystery" and "early 1980s" frames have identical caps to the seat stays. So I am inclined to stick stubbornly to my 1980/81 estimate until we get some more data points. I am very confident that the silver frame is 1977, going by serial number in comparison with known frames. They do seem to have made frames for French components until quite late, judging from what I have seen on ebay. But I agree with you on their emphasis on Campagnolo. I really look forward to reading any more you discover about this great company and their bikes.
I apologize for transgressing the limit of number of posts in a day. I have reformed and put everything today into one and shall not post again today!
Hugh Thornton
Cheshire, England
From: damien roohr <droohr@comcast.net> Subject: Re: [CR] Help! Trying to Identify a Mercier Frame To: "Classic Rendezvous" <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> Date: Friday, 25 June, 2010, 18:18
Hugh - thanks for the pics.
General question -- why did Vitus drill the dropouts?? Seems a hi-risk place to apply an extremely minimal weight savings technique -- was it simply to brand the dropouts as their own?
Damien Roohr
Canton, ct
I am pleased to say that I have exceeded my expectations and uploaded some photographs of my Mercier frame details (in other words I have shirked what I should really have been doing because this was more fun). They are in my flickr account and here is a link that might work:
http://www.flickr.com/
This is the first time that I have looked at all 3 frames in great detail. I have dated one 1977, which is probably close to correct and another early 1980s which I think is likely from the Vitus dropouts and decals which are more similar to Peter's. The other frame - the one identical to Leon's mystery frame I have dated 1977 to 1981. I picked 1977 because that is the date of the derailleur it came with and I have slightly arbitrarily picked 1981 as the upper limit because it has some features in common with the early 1980s frame and also with Perin's 1980 team bike, although it is identical to neither.
I noticed another thing in common with Leon's frame, mine and Perin's in that they have braze-ons for Campagnolo gear levers as well as bottom bracket cable guides, whereas my 1977 frame only has braze-ons for rear gear cable stop and a gear lever stop under the downtube. The same goes for the rear brake bridge and bottle cage attachments which I haven't yet seen on a frame earlier than 1980 - but good pictures are hard to come by.
If I were to be totally objective, I would have to say that I think these mystery frames are 1980-81 whcih I find a bit diappointing because I had looked forward to building mine up with 1977 first generation Super Record, having had the rear gear come with the bike. Another thing, my frame has an English-threaded steerer but so much work has been done on the frame that I assumed that the steerer had been changed, especially since my "early 1980s" frame has a French-threaded steerer, but then on the other hand it still has a wooden plug in place. LEON - can you determing what threading your steerer has?
Here is a link to an earlier Mercier, showing the solid color and earlier headbadge that Peter referred to - pre Service Des Courses:
http://velosvintage.over-blog.com/
I think it was from this blog that I got the pictures of Perin's bike, but the blogger changed blog provider and some things have not been posted back on this blog.
Hugh Thornton
Cheshire, England
From: Peter Rogers <pjrogers@rogers.com> Subject: Re: [CR] Help! Trying to Identify a Mercier Frame To: "Hugh Thornton" <hughwthornton@yahoo.co.uk> Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Date: Friday, 25 June, 2010, 15:30
Hi Hugh, I agree that Mercier is a much ignored, yet important frame builder. I have always been a fan and was lucky enough to see Poulidor racing at Herne Hill when he was with the GAN Mercier team. Look forward to seeing some pictures. If anyone knows if there are any Mercier brochure scans on the net, I'd like to see them! All the best, Peter Rogers
Barrie, Ontario, Canada
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Hugh Thornton" <hughwthornton@yahoo.co.uk>
Sent: Friday, June 25, 2010 10:01 AM
To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
Subject: Re: [CR] Help! Trying to Identify a Mercier Frame
> Hi Peter,
>
> Thanks for the photos and other information. Your seat stay tops are different again, not like the flat caps of old nor the scooped out ones like Leon's and mine.
>
> Metallic pink seems to have been on some Merciers since 1975 at least. Earlier ones are mostly solid colors. If Leon's and mine are 1977 or later, metallic paint would be correct. The shade of pink seems to vary a lot in photographs: I don't know how much in real life.
>
> The earliest I have seen the shield-shaped Services Des Courses badge on the front of a Mercier is 1975 and it bore the number 00088, close to the start of the sequence. My possibly 1997 frame has 09517. I believe you are right that earlier frames also had foil badges stamped with the number, but I think the design was dfifferent. Norris gives the impression that Services Des Course is a separate department for the build of high end frames - like Bianchi's Reparto Corse I presume. If it is a separate department, maybe it started in 1975 (wild guess). Does anybody know of an earlier reference than the 1975 headbadge above?
>
> Sorry if this is all getting a bit confusing. I shall try to get some pictures up on flickr to clarify but it won't be before sometime next week. Sorry also if this thread is getting too much for some - if it is, just delete without reading. Merciers do not get much of a mention on classic rendezvous, but as Norris says, they were a very significant company and they made some great bikes and they supported top level racing for years and years. They really did deserve to win the Tour as payback for everything they put into the sport.
>
> Hugh Thornton
> Cheshire, England
>
> --- On Fri, 25/6/10, Peter Rogers <pjrogers@rogers.com> wrote:
>
>
> From: Peter Rogers <pjrogers@rogers.com>
> Subject: Re: [CR] Help! Trying to Identify a Mercier Frame
> To: "Hugh Thornton" <hughwthornton@yahoo.co.uk>, classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> Date: Friday, 25 June, 2010, 14:18
>
>
> Hi Hugh,
> What is interesting about Leon's frame is the paint underneath the top coat that is on it now.
> It seems to be the same metallic pink as the later frame that I have.
> I have seen a lot of solid pink Mercier frames from the 70's, but I cannot remember seeing any metallic pink ones.
> Any thoughts on this?
> As far as I remember, the 1972 Mercier Professional frame had a foil head badge, with the frame number stamped into it. So, they were using this style since the early 70's, it seems.
> All the best,
> Peter Rogers
> Barrie, Ontario, Canada
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Hugh Thornton" <hughwthornton@yahoo.co.uk>
> Sent: Friday, June 25, 2010 8:31 AM
> To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> Subject: Re: [CR] Help! Trying to Identify a Mercier Frame
>
>> Wow! Thanks Norris. How do you unearth all this good stuff?
>>
>> I have this frame like Leon's (frame A) and I have another 1977 Mercier frame (frame B, which is the pattern for the decals) and there is no comparison in workmanship. Frame A has beautifully filed lugs, whereas frame B - 531 butted, hand made, Service Des Courses, but regular Mercier-inscribed seatstay top caps and pointy fork and stay ends - is not built with the same degree of hand finishing.
>>
>> But my later frame (frame C) has the same seatstay top eyes as frame A and a similar degree of hand finishing, but the fork and stay ends at the dropouts are pointy. It is not very easy to make out the seatstay caps on Peter's frame so it might be helpful if he could say whether they are the same as Leon's.
>>
>> At least by 1977, the Services Des Courses headbadge was thin aluminum (or thick foil) in a shield shape in which the frame number is impressed. I don't know if the badge you refer to was used on other models until the crown came along.
>>
>> The only thing is that Leon's and my frames have a racing number tab and a serious racer is more concerned with performance than super hand fnishing, so if our frames are the higher quality Prestige range, they would appear to be built for "poseurs" rather than "coureurs".
>>
>> Norris - is there any way you can copy that article you referred to and send a copy or stick it on flickr? Would be much appreciated.
>>
>> Leon - does your frame look like it has beautifully hand-filed lugs too?
>>
>> Hugh Thornton
>> Cheshire, England
>>
>> --- On Fri, 25/6/10, Norris Lockley <nlockley73@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> From: Norris Lockley <nlockley73@gmail.com>
>> Subject: [CR] Help! Trying to Identify a Mercier Frame
>> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
>> Date: Friday, 25 June, 2010, 12:56
>>
>>
>> I have just managed to unearth a few more snippets of relevant information
>> about Mercier's range of frames.
>>
>> In September 1975, the firm announced that all it's frame built of Reynolds
>> 531 tubing would have engraved top-eyes, and a Cinelli crown, also engraved.
>>
>> In September 1977 the firm announced that it was introducing a whole new
>> concept to its top-end-frame - the PRESTIGE range., this being in addition
>> to the COMPETITION range that included the Tour de France, Tour du Monde. Le
>> Contre-la-Montre modles. The article making this announcement did not state
>> whether the PRESTIGE range produced custom models only..but did boast of its
>> 'exceptionelle facture artisanale' ie the range's exceptional
>> craftsmanship., the limiting of the number of frames produced in the range
>> and the fact that each frame would receive its own individual frame-number.
>>
>> The original Mercier presssed aluminium slightly art-deco headbadge with the
>> frame-number stamped into the lower panel seems to have been replaced in the
>> very early 80s by a very stylised 'M' with a coronet above.
>>
>> The original Mercier headbadges turn up frequently on French eBay on one of
>> its collectors sites:
>>
>> http://www.ebay.fr/
>>
>> Once into that main site enter 'plaques de velo' in the search engine.
>>
>> Good hunting
>>
>> Norris Lockley
>>
>> Settle UK