Hi Hugh,
At the risk of keeping this long thread going, here is a similar frame to
mine that is currently being offered on ebay:
http://ebay.com/
Barrie, Ontario, Canada
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Hugh Thornton" <hughwthornton@yahoo.co.uk>
Sent: Saturday, June 26, 2010 8:13 AM
To: "Classic Rendezvous" <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
Subject: Re: [CR] Help! Trying to Identify a Mercier Frame
>
> Damien - Sorry if I caused confusion. It is the Campagnolo dropouts on
> the "mystery" frame that are drilled and I would agree that it is a waste
> of time. If you look closely at the gear side dropout on my fame you will
> notice that it is slightly wider at the mouth, and I am sure the reason is
> the weakened dropout combined with someone cranking too hard on the
> derailleur attaching bolt. Dropots were drilled by the frame builder;
> they were not supplied that way
>
> Peter - Thanks for those additional photos. Your Mercier is probably the
> last generation real Mercier and so is useful for slotting in the others
> according to which features they do and do not have.
>
> Leon - The only way to check the steerer thread is to take the the locknut
> off and see whether it fits a steerer of known thread or whether a nut of
> known thread fits the steerer. French is slightly smaller, so a British
> nut is sloppy on a French thread and a French nut will not start on a good
> British thread.
> With respect to colour, they all seem to vary on the screen. The early
> 1980s frame photos I uploaded look slightly bluer on my screen than in
> real life so it comes out slightly more purple on screen. It is original
> paint and unless your is a better guide, it is the one I would use.
> Withy respect to dropout drilling, this was done by hand although one
> would expect a jig to be used if lots were being drilled at the same time.
> I agree mine is a bit erratic. Your front dropout actually sounds like it
> might be Vitus rather than Campagnolo indicating a later fork replacement.
> Would need pictures to be sure. Might explain why I haven't yet found
> traces of chrome on mine. If your frame has been re-forked, it make a
> thread comparison irrelevant.
>
> Norris - Thanks again for your input - always interesting and informative.
> I am not sure I totally agree on dating after comparing these unknown date
> frames to known date frames. A 1977 SDC frame does not have any braze-ons
> except rear chainstay cable stop and gear lever clamp stop. By 1980 they
> have cable guides above the BB and bottle bosses on the downtube and gear
> lever bosses. I wish I could find pictures in beween. The frame I have
> labelled early 1980s has script decals, whereas the team frames at least
> used block letters and SDC shield shaped foil decals on the head tube.
> This frame is closest to Peter's. And I cannot get away from the fact
> that both the "mystery" and "early 1980s" frames have identical caps to
> the seat stays. So I am inclined to stick stubbornly to my 1980/81
> estimate until we get some more data points.
> I am very confident that the silver frame is 1977, going by serial number
> in comparison with known frames. They do seem to have made frames for
> French components until quite late, judging from what I have seen on ebay.
> But I agree with you on their emphasis on Campagnolo.
> I really look forward to reading any more you discover about this great
> company and their bikes.
>
> I apologize for transgressing the limit of number of posts in a day. I
> have reformed and put everything today into one and shall not post again
> today!
>
> Hugh Thornton
> Cheshire, England
>
> --- On Fri, 25/6/10, damien roohr <droohr@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
> From: damien roohr <droohr@comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: [CR] Help! Trying to Identify a Mercier Frame
> To: "Classic Rendezvous" <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> Date: Friday, 25 June, 2010, 18:18
>
>
> Hugh - thanks for the pics.
>
> General question -- why did Vitus drill the dropouts?? Seems a hi-risk
> place to apply an extremely minimal weight savings technique -- was it
> simply to brand the dropouts as their own?
>
> Damien Roohr
> Canton, ct
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Hugh Thornton" <hughwthornton@yahoo.co.uk>
> To: "Classic Rendezvous" <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> Sent: Friday, June 25, 2010 12:55:23 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
> Subject: Re: [CR] Help! Trying to Identify a Mercier Frame
>
>
> I am pleased to say that I have exceeded my expectations and uploaded some
> photographs of my Mercier frame details (in other words I have shirked
> what I should really have been doing because this was more fun). They are
> in my flickr account and here is a link that might work:
>
> http://www.flickr.com/
>
> This is the first time that I have looked at all 3 frames in great detail.
> I have dated one 1977, which is probably close to correct and another
> early 1980s which I think is likely from the Vitus dropouts and decals
> which are more similar to Peter's. The other frame - the one identical to
> Leon's mystery frame I have dated 1977 to 1981. I picked 1977 because that
> is the date of the derailleur it came with and I have slightly arbitrarily
> picked 1981 as the upper limit because it has some features in common with
> the early 1980s frame and also with Perin's 1980 team bike, although it is
> identical to neither.
>
> I noticed another thing in common with Leon's frame, mine and Perin's in
> that they have braze-ons for Campagnolo gear levers as well as bottom
> bracket cable guides, whereas my 1977 frame only has braze-ons for rear
> gear cable stop and a gear lever stop under the downtube. The same goes
> for the rear brake bridge and bottle cage attachments which I haven't yet
> seen on a frame earlier than 1980 - but good pictures are hard to come by.
>
> If I were to be totally objective, I would have to say that I think these
> mystery frames are 1980-81 whcih I find a bit diappointing because I had
> looked forward to building mine up with 1977 first generation Super
> Record, having had the rear gear come with the bike. Another thing, my
> frame has an English-threaded steerer but so much work has been done on
> the frame that I assumed that the steerer had been changed, especially
> since my "early 1980s" frame has a French-threaded steerer, but then on
> the other hand it still has a wooden plug in place. LEON - can you
> determing what threading your steerer has?
>
> Here is a link to an earlier Mercier, showing the solid color and earlier
> headbadge that Peter referred to - pre Service Des Courses:
> http://velosvintage.over-blog.com/
>
> I think it was from this blog that I got the pictures of Perin's bike, but
> the blogger changed blog provider and some things have not been posted
> back on this blog.
>
> Hugh Thornton
> Cheshire, England
>
> --- On Fri, 25/6/10, Peter Rogers <pjrogers@rogers.com> wrote:
>
>
> From: Peter Rogers <pjrogers@rogers.com>
> Subject: Re: [CR] Help! Trying to Identify a Mercier Frame
> To: "Hugh Thornton" <hughwthornton@yahoo.co.uk>
> Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> Date: Friday, 25 June, 2010, 15:30
>
>
> Hi Hugh,
> I agree that Mercier is a much ignored, yet important frame builder.
> I have always been a fan and was lucky enough to see Poulidor racing at
> Herne Hill when he was with the GAN Mercier team.
> Look forward to seeing some pictures.
> If anyone knows if there are any Mercier brochure scans on the net, I'd
> like to see them!
> All the best,
> Peter Rogers
>
> Barrie, Ontario, Canada
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Hugh Thornton" <hughwthornton@yahoo.co.uk>
> Sent: Friday, June 25, 2010 10:01 AM
> To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> Subject: Re: [CR] Help! Trying to Identify a Mercier Frame
>
>> Hi Peter,
>>
>> Thanks for the photos and other information. Your seat stay tops are
>> different again, not like the flat caps of old nor the scooped out ones
>> like Leon's and mine.
>>
>> Metallic pink seems to have been on some Merciers since 1975 at least.
>> Earlier ones are mostly solid colors. If Leon's and mine are 1977 or
>> later, metallic paint would be correct. The shade of pink seems to vary a
>> lot in photographs: I don't know how much in real life.
>>
>> The earliest I have seen the shield-shaped Services Des Courses badge on
>> the front of a Mercier is 1975 and it bore the number 00088, close to the
>> start of the sequence. My possibly 1997 frame has 09517. I believe you
>> are right that earlier frames also had foil badges stamped with the
>> number, but I think the design was dfifferent. Norris gives the
>> impression that Services Des Course is a separate department for the
>> build of high end frames - like Bianchi's Reparto Corse I presume. If it
>> is a separate department, maybe it started in 1975 (wild guess). Does
>> anybody know of an earlier reference than the 1975 headbadge above?
>>
>> Sorry if this is all getting a bit confusing. I shall try to get some
>> pictures up on flickr to clarify but it won't be before sometime next
>> week. Sorry also if this thread is getting too much for some - if it is,
>> just delete without reading. Merciers do not get much of a mention on
>> classic rendezvous, but as Norris says, they were a very significant
>> company and they made some great bikes and they supported top level
>> racing for years and years. They really did deserve to win the Tour as
>> payback for everything they put into the sport.
>>
>> Hugh Thornton
>> Cheshire, England
>>
>> --- On Fri, 25/6/10, Peter Rogers <pjrogers@rogers.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> From: Peter Rogers <pjrogers@rogers.com>
>> Subject: Re: [CR] Help! Trying to Identify a Mercier Frame
>> To: "Hugh Thornton" <hughwthornton@yahoo.co.uk>,
>> classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
>> Date: Friday, 25 June, 2010, 14:18
>>
>>
>> Hi Hugh,
>> What is interesting about Leon's frame is the paint underneath the top
>> coat that is on it now.
>> It seems to be the same metallic pink as the later frame that I have.
>> I have seen a lot of solid pink Mercier frames from the 70's, but I
>> cannot remember seeing any metallic pink ones.
>> Any thoughts on this?
>> As far as I remember, the 1972 Mercier Professional frame had a foil head
>> badge, with the frame number stamped into it. So, they were using this
>> style since the early 70's, it seems.
>> All the best,
>> Peter Rogers
>> Barrie, Ontario, Canada
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------
>> From: "Hugh Thornton" <hughwthornton@yahoo.co.uk>
>> Sent: Friday, June 25, 2010 8:31 AM
>> To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
>> Subject: Re: [CR] Help! Trying to Identify a Mercier Frame
>>
>>> Wow! Thanks Norris. How do you unearth all this good stuff?
>>>
>>> I have this frame like Leon's (frame A) and I have another 1977 Mercier
>>> frame (frame B, which is the pattern for the decals) and there is no
>>> comparison in workmanship. Frame A has beautifully filed lugs, whereas
>>> frame B - 531 butted, hand made, Service Des Courses, but regular
>>> Mercier-inscribed seatstay top caps and pointy fork and stay ends - is
>>> not built with the same degree of hand finishing.
>>>
>>> But my later frame (frame C) has the same seatstay top eyes as frame A
>>> and a similar degree of hand finishing, but the fork and stay ends at
>>> the dropouts are pointy. It is not very easy to make out the seatstay
>>> caps on Peter's frame so it might be helpful if he could say whether
>>> they are the same as Leon's.
>>>
>>> At least by 1977, the Services Des Courses headbadge was thin aluminum
>>> (or thick foil) in a shield shape in which the frame number is
>>> impressed. I don't know if the badge you refer to was used on other
>>> models until the crown came along.
>>>
>>> The only thing is that Leon's and my frames have a racing number tab and
>>> a serious racer is more concerned with performance than super hand
>>> fnishing, so if our frames are the higher quality Prestige range, they
>>> would appear to be built for "poseurs" rather than "coureurs".
>>>
>>> Norris - is there any way you can copy that article you referred to and
>>> send a copy or stick it on flickr? Would be much appreciated.
>>>
>>> Leon - does your frame look like it has beautifully hand-filed lugs too?
>>>
>>> Hugh Thornton
>>> Cheshire, England
>>>
>>> --- On Fri, 25/6/10, Norris Lockley <nlockley73@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Norris Lockley <nlockley73@gmail.com>
>>> Subject: [CR] Help! Trying to Identify a Mercier Frame
>>> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
>>> Date: Friday, 25 June, 2010, 12:56
>>>
>>>
>>> I have just managed to unearth a few more snippets of relevant
>>> information
>>> about Mercier's range of frames.
>>>
>>> In September 1975, the firm announced that all it's frame built of
>>> Reynolds
>>> 531 tubing would have engraved top-eyes, and a Cinelli crown, also
>>> engraved.
>>>
>>> In September 1977 the firm announced that it was introducing a whole new
>>> concept to its top-end-frame - the PRESTIGE range., this being in
>>> addition
>>> to the COMPETITION range that included the Tour de France, Tour du
>>> Monde. Le
>>> Contre-la-Montre modles. The article making this announcement did not
>>> state
>>> whether the PRESTIGE range produced custom models only..but did boast of
>>> its
>>> 'exceptionelle facture artisanale' ie the range's exceptional
>>> craftsmanship., the limiting of the number of frames produced in the
>>> range
>>> and the fact that each frame would receive its own individual
>>> frame-number.
>>>
>>> The original Mercier presssed aluminium slightly art-deco headbadge with
>>> the
>>> frame-number stamped into the lower panel seems to have been replaced in
>>> the
>>> very early 80s by a very stylised 'M' with a coronet above.
>>>
>>> The original Mercier headbadges turn up frequently on French eBay on one
>>> of
>>> its collectors sites:
>>>
>>> http://www.ebay.fr/
>>>
>>> Once into that main site enter 'plaques de velo' in the search engine.
>>>
>>> Good hunting
>>>
>>> Norris Lockley
>>>
>>> Settle UK