Re: [CR] Frame stiffness NOW Frames Getting Soft and 753


Example: Component Manufacturers:Chater-Lea

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To: "WILLIAM HACKETT" <wfhackett@cox.net>, classicrendezvous-bounces@bikelist.org, billydavid13@comcast.net, Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
From: joeb-z@comcast.net
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 00:19:09 +0000
Subject: Re: [CR] Frame stiffness NOW Frames Getting Soft and 753


Ok, Jim and Mark are right. It is funny that collectively we would otherwise ride the softest bikes out there. If not overly stressed (look up Goodman diagram) steel will not even fatigue.

Joe Bender-Zanoni Whitneyville, CT Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-----Original Message----- From: WILLIAM HACKETT <wfhackett@cox.net> Sender: classicrendezvous-bounces@bikelist.org Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2010 16:03:14 To: <billydavid13@comcast.net>; <Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> Subject: Re: [CR] Frame stiffness NOW Frames Getting Soft and 753

Gentlemen

Fatigue properties and working stress are factors involved. The Bike Frame is stressing everytime it is ridden. Any tubing will break if it is stress often enough. Even if the stress is well below the failure properties of the material. Self Annealing of steel without heat over long period of time is not likely.

There must be a Reynolds Handbook that recommends working stress and factors of safety, for each tubing and method of assembly.

It is likely that some Frame builders would take materials to design limits, to have a best and most competitive Racing Frame.

The special frames would be retried.

Bill Hackett, Mesa Arizona


----- Original Message -----
From:
To: "donald gillies"
Cc:
Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 3:18 PM
Subject: Re: [CR] Frame stiffness NOW Frames Getting Soft and 753


Hi Donald, all. This discussion's a bit over my head. But, as per Don's suggestion i always keep a couple of cold ones in the 'fridge. Cheers. Billy Ketchum sweltering in Chicago, IL; USA.


----- Original Message -----
From: "donald gillies"
To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
Sent: Tuesday, July 6, 2010 2:34:07 PM
Subject: Re: [CR] Frame stiffness NOW Frames Getting Soft and 753


Well, I don't believe that 531 tubing can 'get soft', but In theory a heat-treated frame like 753 could possibly 'get soft', and here's why:

My understanding is that 753 tubing was just thin 531 tubing that has been heat-treated, i.e. heated to high temperature an then quenched to rapidly freeze the grain structure in the random pattern obtained at high temperature, thereby stiffening the tubing:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quench

The opposite of Quenching metal is annealing, i.e. heating metal to a high temperature and then slowly cooling it back to normal temperature. That reorganizes the grain structure making the frame less-stiff but more resilient and increasing the fatigue limit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annealing_(metallurgy)

====

Well, it turns out that the frame is annealing itself all the time, from the heat at room temperature. If you have ever looked at a piece of glass that is 100 years old, you can see ripples and lumps in the glass. This is not from a poor manufacturing process 100 years ago, in fact, 100 years ago the glass was perfectly smooth, but in the intervening 100 years the glass has "gone soft", i.e. it has integrated enough thermal vibrations into its grain structure to melt slightly and change shape, i.e. it has annealed, slightly.

The same thing is happening to Reynolds 753 all the time. The more heat the frame gets, the more likely the frame will 'anneal'. In fact, the degree of annealing is probably equal, almost, to the integral of all the heat the frame has absorbed since it was originally heat-treated.

====

The conclusion is inescapable. First of all, don't buy any Reynolds 753 frames from Texas or Arizona! And secondly, when not in use, you should store your reynolds 753 bicycle in a refrigerated meat locker! Nothing less preserve the ride characteristics of your frame and keep it from going soft !!! :-) :-)

- Don :-) Gillies
San Diego, CA, USA