Being a Yorkshireman, who has ridden the Yorkshire courses I can vouch for what Neil's last remarks where concerning how hilly they were...........didn't notice it as much until the [off topic, sorry Dale] computers came along and you could see your speed go up and down as the road dictated!
As for the notion that the cheaper mass produced bikes where inferior.......I couldn't really comment, as I have been perhaps 'spoilt' by being a framebuilder for close on 40 years, so obviously biased to thinking hand made frames will be superior........however, I do believe there is a place for such machines, and they should be cherished just as much as a 'more expensive' machine.......
cheers Kevin Sayles Bridgwater Somerset UK
>----Original Message----
>From: neilfoddering@hotmail.com
>Date: 07/02/2010 16:35
>To: <barriemgracer@yahoo.co.uk>, "Rendezvous Classic"
<classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
>Subj: Re: [CR] TTs and Dawes.
>
>
>Hang on a minute, Barry, if you're going to write off all these
marques as complete rubbish, then you might as well do the same with
cars, and say that verything except a racing car is complete rubbish.
I suggest that it was more a case of "horses for courses", plus a large
dose of snobbery, ignorance and fashion. I say ignorance, because I
suspect that many clubmen of the day wouldn't have been able to
recognise a well-built machine, but went for what everyone else did,
the flashier the better, and the fancier lugs, the better. (And as to
the anonymous grey porridge which was churned out using Nervex lugs
over a couple of decades, try to identify who built a frame if the
transfers and headbadge are missing).
>
>The Raleigh Record Ace built just post war until about 1954 is a
quality machine, better-built than some machines I've seen from smaller
makers which would have been deemed acceptable to clubmen, and this
model was good enough for Reg Harrris and the great Ray Booty, although
the ordinary clubman might well have been nervous of what his clubmates
would say if he turned up on one, and would have taken the path of
least resistance.
>
>I stand to be corrected, but I don't believe that this level of
snobbery regarding different makes of lightweight existed to the same
extent before the war; I say "lightweight", because there certainly
seemed to be a divide between the clubmen and the utility riders, whom
they affected to despise. Again, citing the Raleigh Record Ace and its
predecessors, there seems to have been no shame in using one of these
well-built machines for club and racing purposes, and top riders of the
day, including Jack Rossiter, Sid Ferris, Bert James and Charles
Holland used them for successful record attempts.
>
>As to flat TTs: I'm reading (for the second time) "A Wheel in Two
Worlds" by Ron Kitching, and any notions of all Time Trial courses
being flat will be quickly dispelled when you read what some of the
Yorkshire courses were like.
>
>Neil Foddering
>Weymouth, Dorset, England
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>> Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2010 14:40:41 +0000
>> From: barriemgracer@yahoo.co.uk
>> To: Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
>> Subject: [CR] TTs and Dawes.
>>
>> who told you all this rubbish about Flat Time Trials? The mere
meaning of the words TIMED TRIAL, should tell you that it was a TEST
over an out and home equidistant measured distance. I only en
>> ver saw a flat one. round the reservoirs at Thames Ditton and that
had more corners than a maze. All the time trials I road ,and that was
many, were hilly, but most people rode fixed gear bikes in TTs and it
wasnt until the late 50s that guys started to use gears. The fixie
craze now on was the norm in the pre and post years.
>> As for front changers, you dont seem to understand that these great
lumps of iron you call lightweight, Dawes, Phillips, Raleigh, etc were
complete rubbish and no club member would be seen dead on them. They
never had front changers because most of them had 3 gears not 5 with
great chunks of steel williams, phillips or Raliegh chainsets. If you
wanted front changers, you were a club rider and had a lightweight that
was hand made. The Dayton was another piece of junk that people rave
about. None4 of these bikes were ever used by club riders .
>> Dont also forget that just after the warf, we had a poor economy m
most people had a bike, few had cars, we had petrol rationing too and
cars were not made available to \joe Public until the mid 50s, so you
rodce everywhere. Hence the suedo racer, Dawes, Dayton, NEVER Raleigh,
or Hercules unless you were the local vicar, posty or copper, bikes
like the Phillips Kingfisher, sold for 9 guineas[not your sort!] and
was usually bought on finance. These old horses were sold with 3 gears
and front changers were only fitted to lightweight european steeds.
>> Dont EVER think that we only raod flat TTs. The UK may not be the
Alps, but little of it is flat, and the organisers of such were
sadists.
>> Sorry for the lesson
>> Barrie Carter Roundham in hilly somerset. UK