Re: [CR] Help! Trying to Identify a Mercier Frame

(Example: Framebuilders:Alex Singer)

From: Peter Rogers <pjrogers@rogers.com>
To: "Hugh Thornton" <hughwthornton@yahoo.co.uk>, "Classic Rendezvous" <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
References: <811095.92602.qm@web25903.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
In-Reply-To: <811095.92602.qm@web25903.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 13:19:30 -0400
Subject: Re: [CR] Help! Trying to Identify a Mercier Frame


Hi Hugh, While we are on the subject of brazed-on fittings, I just posted a photo showing how the derailleur cables are dealt with on my Mercier. It follows the more modern approach of taking the cable under the BB shell. http://petersclassicwheels.blogspot.com/ Nice detective work in this thread. It goes to show that there is not a lot known about this brand and especially the latter years of production. All the best, Peter

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Hugh Thornton" <hughwthornton@yahoo.co.uk>
Sent: Friday, June 25, 2010 12:55 PM
To: "Classic Rendezvous" <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
Subject: Re: [CR] Help! Trying to Identify a Mercier Frame


>

> I am pleased to say that I have exceeded my expectations and uploaded some

> photographs of my Mercier frame details (in other words I have shirked

> what I should really have been doing because this was more fun). They are

> in my flickr account and here is a link that might work:

>

> http://www.flickr.com/photos/debirkin/

>

> This is the first time that I have looked at all 3 frames in great detail.

> I have dated one 1977, which is probably close to correct and another

> early 1980s which I think is likely from the Vitus dropouts and decals

> which are more similar to Peter's. The other frame - the one identical to

> Leon's mystery frame I have dated 1977 to 1981. I picked 1977 because

> that is the date of the derailleur it came with and I have slightly

> arbitrarily picked 1981 as the upper limit because it has some features in

> common with the early 1980s frame and also with Perin's 1980 team bike,

> although it is identical to neither.

>

> I noticed another thing in common with Leon's frame, mine and Perin's in

> that they have braze-ons for Campagnolo gear levers as well as bottom

> bracket cable guides, whereas my 1977 frame only has braze-ons for rear

> gear cable stop and a gear lever stop under the downtube. The same goes

> for the rear brake bridge and bottle cage attachments which I haven't yet

> seen on a frame earlier than 1980 - but good pictures are hard to come by.

>

> If I were to be totally objective, I would have to say that I think these

> mystery frames are 1980-81 whcih I find a bit diappointing because I had

> looked forward to building mine up with 1977 first generation Super

> Record, having had the rear gear come with the bike. Another thing, my

> frame has an English-threaded steerer but so much work has been done on

> the frame that I assumed that the steerer had been changed, especially

> since my "early 1980s" frame has a French-threaded steerer, but then on

> the other hand it still has a wooden plug in place. LEON - can you

> determing what threading your steerer has?

>

> Here is a link to an earlier Mercier, showing the solid color and earlier

> headbadge that Peter referred to - pre Service Des Courses:

> http://velosvintage.over-blog.com/article-velo-gan-mercier-hutchinson-1973-51968310.html

>

> I think it was from this blog that I got the pictures of Perin's bike, but

> the blogger changed blog provider and some things have not been posted

> back on this blog.

>

> Hugh Thornton

> Cheshire, England

>

> --- On Fri, 25/6/10, Peter Rogers <pjrogers@rogers.com> wrote:

>

>

> From: Peter Rogers <pjrogers@rogers.com>

> Subject: Re: [CR] Help! Trying to Identify a Mercier Frame

> To: "Hugh Thornton" <hughwthornton@yahoo.co.uk>

> Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org

> Date: Friday, 25 June, 2010, 15:30

>

>

> Hi Hugh,

> I agree that Mercier is a much ignored, yet important frame builder.

> I have always been a fan and was lucky enough to see Poulidor racing at

> Herne Hill when he was with the GAN Mercier team.

> Look forward to seeing some pictures.

> If anyone knows if there are any Mercier brochure scans on the net, I'd

> like to see them!

> All the best,

> Peter Rogers

>

> Barrie, Ontario, Canada

>

>

>

> --------------------------------------------------

> From: "Hugh Thornton" <hughwthornton@yahoo.co.uk>

> Sent: Friday, June 25, 2010 10:01 AM

> To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>

> Subject: Re: [CR] Help! Trying to Identify a Mercier Frame

>

>> Hi Peter,

>>

>> Thanks for the photos and other information. Your seat stay tops are

>> different again, not like the flat caps of old nor the scooped out ones

>> like Leon's and mine.

>>

>> Metallic pink seems to have been on some Merciers since 1975 at least.

>> Earlier ones are mostly solid colors. If Leon's and mine are 1977 or

>> later, metallic paint would be correct. The shade of pink seems to vary

>> a lot in photographs: I don't know how much in real life.

>>

>> The earliest I have seen the shield-shaped Services Des Courses badge on

>> the front of a Mercier is 1975 and it bore the number 00088, close to the

>> start of the sequence. My possibly 1997 frame has 09517. I believe you

>> are right that earlier frames also had foil badges stamped with the

>> number, but I think the design was dfifferent. Norris gives the

>> impression that Services Des Course is a separate department for the

>> build of high end frames - like Bianchi's Reparto Corse I presume. If it

>> is a separate department, maybe it started in 1975 (wild guess). Does

>> anybody know of an earlier reference than the 1975 headbadge above?

>>

>> Sorry if this is all getting a bit confusing. I shall try to get some

>> pictures up on flickr to clarify but it won't be before sometime next

>> week. Sorry also if this thread is getting too much for some - if it is,

>> just delete without reading. Merciers do not get much of a mention on

>> classic rendezvous, but as Norris says, they were a very significant

>> company and they made some great bikes and they supported top level

>> racing for years and years. They really did deserve to win the Tour as

>> payback for everything they put into the sport.

>>

>> Hugh Thornton

>> Cheshire, England

>>

>> --- On Fri, 25/6/10, Peter Rogers <pjrogers@rogers.com> wrote:

>>

>>

>> From: Peter Rogers <pjrogers@rogers.com>

>> Subject: Re: [CR] Help! Trying to Identify a Mercier Frame

>> To: "Hugh Thornton" <hughwthornton@yahoo.co.uk>,

>> classicrendezvous@bikelist.org

>> Date: Friday, 25 June, 2010, 14:18

>>

>>

>> Hi Hugh,

>> What is interesting about Leon's frame is the paint underneath the top

>> coat that is on it now.

>> It seems to be the same metallic pink as the later frame that I have.

>> I have seen a lot of solid pink Mercier frames from the 70's, but I

>> cannot remember seeing any metallic pink ones.

>> Any thoughts on this?

>> As far as I remember, the 1972 Mercier Professional frame had a foil head

>> badge, with the frame number stamped into it. So, they were using this

>> style since the early 70's, it seems.

>> All the best,

>> Peter Rogers

>> Barrie, Ontario, Canada

>>

>> --------------------------------------------------

>> From: "Hugh Thornton" <hughwthornton@yahoo.co.uk>

>> Sent: Friday, June 25, 2010 8:31 AM

>> To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>

>> Subject: Re: [CR] Help! Trying to Identify a Mercier Frame

>>

>>> Wow! Thanks Norris. How do you unearth all this good stuff?

>>>

>>> I have this frame like Leon's (frame A) and I have another 1977 Mercier

>>> frame (frame B, which is the pattern for the decals) and there is no

>>> comparison in workmanship. Frame A has beautifully filed lugs, whereas

>>> frame B - 531 butted, hand made, Service Des Courses, but regular

>>> Mercier-inscribed seatstay top caps and pointy fork and stay ends - is

>>> not built with the same degree of hand finishing.

>>>

>>> But my later frame (frame C) has the same seatstay top eyes as frame A

>>> and a similar degree of hand finishing, but the fork and stay ends at

>>> the dropouts are pointy. It is not very easy to make out the seatstay

>>> caps on Peter's frame so it might be helpful if he could say whether

>>> they are the same as Leon's.

>>>

>>> At least by 1977, the Services Des Courses headbadge was thin aluminum

>>> (or thick foil) in a shield shape in which the frame number is

>>> impressed. I don't know if the badge you refer to was used on other

>>> models until the crown came along.

>>>

>>> The only thing is that Leon's and my frames have a racing number tab and

>>> a serious racer is more concerned with performance than super hand

>>> fnishing, so if our frames are the higher quality Prestige range, they

>>> would appear to be built for "poseurs" rather than "coureurs".

>>>

>>> Norris - is there any way you can copy that article you referred to and

>>> send a copy or stick it on flickr? Would be much appreciated.

>>>

>>> Leon - does your frame look like it has beautifully hand-filed lugs too?

>>>

>>> Hugh Thornton

>>> Cheshire, England

>>>

>>> --- On Fri, 25/6/10, Norris Lockley <nlockley73@gmail.com> wrote:

>>>

>>>

>>> From: Norris Lockley <nlockley73@gmail.com>

>>> Subject: [CR] Help! Trying to Identify a Mercier Frame

>>> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org

>>> Date: Friday, 25 June, 2010, 12:56

>>>

>>>

>>> I have just managed to unearth a few more snippets of relevant

>>> information

>>> about Mercier's range of frames.

>>>

>>> In September 1975, the firm announced that all it's frame built of

>>> Reynolds

>>> 531 tubing would have engraved top-eyes, and a Cinelli crown, also

>>> engraved.

>>>

>>> In September 1977 the firm announced that it was introducing a whole new

>>> concept to its top-end-frame - the PRESTIGE range., this being in

>>> addition

>>> to the COMPETITION range that included the Tour de France, Tour du

>>> Monde. Le

>>> Contre-la-Montre modles. The article making this announcement did not

>>> state

>>> whether the PRESTIGE range produced custom models only..but did boast of

>>> its

>>> 'exceptionelle facture artisanale' ie the range's exceptional

>>> craftsmanship., the limiting of the number of frames produced in the

>>> range

>>> and the fact that each frame would receive its own individual

>>> frame-number.

>>>

>>> The original Mercier presssed aluminium slightly art-deco headbadge with

>>> the

>>> frame-number stamped into the lower panel seems to have been replaced in

>>> the

>>> very early 80s by a very stylised 'M' with a coronet above.

>>>

>>> The original Mercier headbadges turn up frequently on French eBay on one

>>> of

>>> its collectors sites:

>>>

>>> http://www.ebay.fr/Collections/Objetspublicitaires/Plaques-emaillees-anciennes/

>>>

>>> Once into that main site enter 'plaques de velo' in the search engine.

>>>

>>> Good hunting

>>>

>>> Norris Lockley

>>>

>>> Settle UK