The Vetta-frames i mentioned mostly had a lot of winged-C pantos on the lugs, the fork-crown and on the brake-bridge as well. I always suspected this was due to the fact that Cinelli-lugs and other framebuilding parts were used. I also have seen one of those Schuster-cinelli-Vettas being sold on ebay by a german vendor as a Cinelli, obviously using a Cinelli winged-C decal set as used on the 80ies Cinelli SC-models. This was of course a fake, since the frame still had the Schuster engravings all over it. The selle claimed it was a frame made by Cinellis for Schuster, which it was not, since Mr. Schuster had told me that this biles were made by Vetta.
Michael Schmid Oberamergau Germany
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: email@example.com [mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org] Im Auftrag von Hugh Thornton Gesendet: Sonntag, 16. Januar 2011 18:26 An: 'Classic Rendezvous' Betreff: Re: [CR] Cinelli "CX"
There have been a couple of suggestion, including Off List, that this "Cinelli CX" frame was built by a company other than Cinelli to be branded as something else. If this is the case, it is strange that there are indented/engraved Cinelli "C" logos in parts such as the head lugs and brake bridge, unless they were filled in prior to the original paint. This is why it is always a pity from a historical perspective when a frame is refinished - unless a record of before and after is kept with the frame, we just don't know what was there before.
Contrary to Norris' suggestion, there are 4 "grooves", not 5 in the top and down tubes, whereas the seat tube is round. Judging from photographs I can find on the web, the pattern is not the same as the Colnago Master. The ebay photos were not very good, so I plan to take some more detailed photos in the next day or so and shall post them to my flickr account.
I am grateful to Michael Schmid (below) for drawing our attention to Vetta in Padova, whom I had not heard of: http://www.vetta.it/index_altra.htm . They have been building frames since 1947 and are still at it (I hope - their catalog is dated 2009, but their website is still live) I would not at all mind if they built my frame and I may ask them if I cannot find anything definitive anywhere else.
From: Michael Schmid <email@example.com> Subject: AW: [CR] Cinelli "CX" To: "'Hugh Thornton'" <firstname.lastname@example.org>, "'Classic Rendezvous'" <email@example.com> Date: Saturday, 15 January, 2011, 22:09
Hugh and list, I strongly suspect the frame might be one made by Vetta. In my area, there is a bikestore which used to order frames from Vetta in Padua in the 80ies. He had some of the frames personalized for his store and those frame showed "Schuster"-Pantos on the fork-crown as well as on the seat-stays. Lugs and BB-shell were almost always Cinelli. There also were frames showing the CX-pantos on the seatstays and Cinelli-emgraved fork-crowns. These frames were all made by Vetta and came with separate decals which were attached after assembly or sometimes not at all. Most of the frames showed the chromovelato-finish and the tubing was in a range from Aelle up to SL or SLX in later years. On ebay I have seen many of these frames promoted as Cinellis, due to the Cinelli-marked lugs and BB-shells. About two years ago I was able to purchase some frames from the store since Mr. Schuster still had quite a number of frames in stock and sold them for a very reasonable price. I had built them up for some friends and one of the frames had very unusual tubing which was "grooved" but not like the Gilco shape. The grooves seemed to be machined. Are there pictures of the purchased frame? I hope I could shed some light on the CX-Story.
Michael Schmid Oberammergau Germany
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: firstname.lastname@example.org [mailto:email@example.com] Im Auftrag von Hugh Thornton Gesendet: Samstag, 15. Januar 2011 02:42 An: Classic Rendezvous Betreff: Re: [CR] Cinelli "CX"
As the purchaser of this frame, I find that very interesting. If it is not a genuine Cinelli, someone has certainly gone to a whole lot of trouble for very little return!
I have not been able to find any photos or information regarding the CX, other than it really did exist as a model at some point in time, so I have been unable to confirm any of the features or anything that would date it. The Super Record headset, if original, would probably place it sometime in the early to mid 1980s.
The bottom bracket is Cinelli and the fork crown, head lugs and brake bridge are all engraved with the Cinelli "C" logo, which would take some faking, and the seat stays are stamped CX near the top ends. I suppose it is always possible that someone repaired a more conventional Cinelli frame by fitting shaped top and down tubes (probably requiring a new fork too if those tubes were bent), but it is hard to imagine why anybody would do that and then stamp the seatstays too. Because it has been refinished and had the wrong tubing decal fitted, I do not know what the tubes are - if it is genuine, it is hard to imagine that they would be anything other than Columbus - why would they use a rival's tubes?
I am kind of hoping that it is a fake because that makes it more interesting, but my current thinking is that anybody who faked it would be more peculiar than is probable.
By the way, didn't the Colnago Master use Gilco design shaped Columbus tubes? How come a shaped tube has to be made by Oria?
I really hope that someone can shed some light on this.
From: Angel Garcia <firstname.lastname@example.org> Subject: [CR] Cinelli "CX" To: email@example.com Date: Saturday, 15 January, 2011, 0:15
A list member recently purchased an unusual Cinelli...thought to be "CX"
>From Cinelli I received this (they looked at the photos):
I spoke to a few of my colleagues this morning and came to the conclusion with them that this frame is almost certainly a fake or unofficial Cinelli. We never used that lugset, but even more telling is the top tube with its \u201cmaster\u201d style shaping which is a give away that the tube is in fact not even Columbus but an Oria tube shaped by Silva. It is the tubing which makes us almost certain that this frame while certainly not a production model, is not even a prototype."
Hilary Stone has referenced the "CX" as well and I wonder if he has any info about what he had heard about a "CX"?
Long Valley NJ